Re: [BNW] Dodgy Tricks

["D. Jon Mattson" <dmattson@kermode.net>]

> In my group, i just counted the target number
> as 5 (ie the original roll the attacker would
> have had to make) then had any extra sucesses
> work from that.  It works about right.

Mmmm, nope. I can't see that.  First off, the target number is seldom 5.  In
close combat, you have to add in the opponent's Fighting, and in ranged
combat you usually have a range modifier.  In both types, you get all sorts
of other modifiers for wounds, etc.  Besides, even if the TN is exactly 5,
that's not how extra successes on opposed rolls work.  You get an extra
success on an opposed roll for every 5 points that your roll beats the
opponent's ROLL, not his TN (see page 82 of BNW).  Doing it the other way
ignores the quality of your opponent's roll, which doesn't make sense (and
also probably makes extra successes too common).  Not to mention that fact
that it should get easier for you when it gets harder for the attacker
(doing it your way, it gets harder for both of you when the TN goes up and
easier for both when it goes down).

> You know, I always thought it would be an
> opposed roll (you don't dodge just to dodge)
> so the number of extra successes would be based
> on how much you beat your opponent's roll by.

Yup, that's what I thought, too.  So you can imagine my embarrasment when
one of the players, flipping through the book, said, "Uh....Jon...?"

> But this message got me thinking that that's
> kind of silly. Doing it the opposed way means
> that if a flyer were to dodge a crappy shot
> before a good shot it could have wildly different
> results than if she were to dodge a good shot
> followed by a crappy shot.  Not to mention the
>  confusion that would arise if you were using group
> init. for the bad guys!


That's kind of what I was getting at near the end of my post, too -- the
glitch in the system (BNW's or mine) -- you just hit the nail on the head
better than I did.  Here's the real problem, though: even NOT doing it the
opposed way (i.e. doing it just like it says in BNW, where the dodge simply
becomes the base TN), you still have pretty much the same problem.  If the
attacker blows it badly, you get some extra successes; if he does well, you
don't.  Which means that if you are being attacked by several people, you
really want the crappy shot to be the first one, since that's where your
extra successes will be.  And, as you said, what do you do if all the bad
guys go at once?

Here's an even bigger problem, though: what if the player's are the
attackers, instead of the defenders?  In all of our examples, we've been
thinking about the player's defending.  Flip it around for a minute.  Scary,
huh?  What's to keep all of the players who are crappy shots from holding
their action until the best shot goes, so that the enemy's dodge-based trick
either fails or comes off poorly?  As stands, that's a perfectly
legitimate -- even sensible -- maneuver.  But it's also pretty ridiculous
and clearly rules-abusive.

Now, to a degree, this logic applies to ALL opposed rolls.  What I mean is
that extra successes earned on them are always dependent on the interaction
between your roll and your opponent's.  For some powers that works okay --
even some of the ones that need the extra successes on a dodge roll.  But
for others, it's just.... weird.  I guess that's because most opposed rolls
don't involve a lot of different people interacting at once, if you see what
I mean.  In other words, a psychic attack roll might be an opposed Spirit
roll but otherwise work in pretty much the same way as a normal attack.  But
you don't to worry about the timing of multiple psychic resistance ("dodge")
rolls, since you're never going to be making a bunch of them in a row
against multiple opponents (okay, well almost never...).

Another part of the problem is that extra successes on opposed rolls usually
only affect that one interaction.  For example, if I get an extra success
trying to zap someone with a power, it might extend the damage or the
duration or whatever.  But it is only affecting that one power event.  On
the other hand, a lot of tricks that use extra successes on dodge rolls have
results that last beyond the one event.  A couple of examples should clarify
this...

Let's look at Turnabout.  You get an extra success on your dodge roll, and
you can turn an attack back to its source.  One roll, one event.  This works
pretty well with the opposed roll system  -- no complaints here (ignoring
the fact the "dodge" is kind of a strange skill to use with it -- shouldn't
it be some kind of "block" or something?).  Whether you do really well or
your for does really badly (or both), the end result makes sense.

Now let's look at Mental Shield.  Here, an extra success allows the hero to
activate telekinetic "armor" of 10/- to block incoming attacks.  It doesn't
specify how many attacks or for how long, but we are clearly dealing with
more than just the one attack that triggered it.  I mean, that one should
have been dodged, anyway -- I'd rather just be missed than knock 10 points
off a hit, thank you very much.  In fact, at a glance, it sounds like the
shield lasts for the rest of the fight.  One roll, multiple events.  Villain
X screws up his attack, so now villain Y now has to deal with the hero
having 10 point armor.  Huh...?

Of course, none of these musings really answer the question: How do you get
an extra success on a dodge roll?  Maybe the better question is: Should all
of these tricks need an extra success on a dodge roll in the first place?
Maybe they should be triggered in some other way.  After all, the dodge
system in BNW works okay the way it is written, in every other respect.  It
would be easier to change a few tricks than to change an integral game
mechanic.

Cwylric