Re: [HoE] Templars and Anti-Templars

[Coucouvinis <deimos@tig.com.au>]

Steve Crow wrote:

> Nope.  As per the example I spelled out earlier, I meant "good" Chosen as in
> non-Silas Community Village.  Didn't want anyone to think I was encouraging
> Templars to defend Silas' Grundies and Doombringers.  :)
>

Sorry about that - I don't think I read the post where you spelled it out. The
only reason a Templar would have for infiltrating a Silas community would be to
recruit grundies for the army of light...serious shock troops there.

So by "relatively good" you meant "not evil" - cool. =]

> Also, if you check out that example, I noted that most Chosen weren't going
> to embrace a newcomer or let them work for food (particularly a "norm")
> coming into their community, due to hostile treatment for the last 13 years.
>   Granted, the Templar could disguise himself as a mutant (assuming he isn't
> one), but one would suspect that after he revealed the fact he wasn't a
> mutant, the Chosen wouldn't be too happy with him either, whether they're
> "worthy" or not...
>

As I said, I think I missed that example, but if the community isn't going to
embrace newcomers, especially "norms", then how are the rest of the posse
helping them? (assuming they're not all mutants who came from the village)

>
> Yep.  A lovely and appropriate concept.  The problem is, Pinnacle provides
> no way to make workable.  These are people that the Templar has determined
> are already "poor Samaritans" anyway - why are they suddenly inspired to go
> out and be (potentially suicidal) Good Samaritans?  Apparently, just because
> he's a Templar, as others noted.  Even though he doesn't really have any way
> to protect them.
>

I think the general idea is that the Templar *usually* only reveals himself to

>
> What do you mean Simon doesn't have strict rules for judging people?  The
> Templar Sourcebook is filled with the strict rules he has for determining if
> a Squire should graduate, if he assigns a Templar to someone coming before
> him to ask for assistance, etc.  Mordeen got kicked out exactly _because_
> Simon has strict rules for judging people.
>

Sorry, I wasn't very clear - I meant to say that Simon judges people and cases
individually - he doesn't have a checklist of things, and if someone gets above
a certain score they're worthy/unworthy.

> <sorry, I seem to be snipping fairly liberally>
> Could you cite some specific examples of such leeway provided in the
> rulebooks and sourcebooks?  Geez, even NPCs like Jo identify him as a harsh
> taskmaster who has come up with a particular view of how to handle the
> world, and only accepts those into the Order that embrace it as well.
>
> Plus such "leeway" doesn't make much sense anyway, nor is it, IMO, very well
> explained in the Templar SB.  So what _does_ Simon do with Templars that
> help the unworthy?  Folks have asserted he doesn't blackball them, but
> without (very likely party-divisive) punishment, and if they keep their
> powers, why shouldn't Templars help the "unworthy"?  An approach of "Yeah,
> Simon will never know!" by PC Templars doesn't seem either balanced or
> reasonable.
>

Check my other post - I quoted part of LC that provides an example.

> Not to mention that the Anti-Templars were formed in large part because
> Simon _wasn't_ very lenient.  If Templars aren't defecting in droves because
> Simon is a nice guy who lets his Templars have near-free choice to decide
> who is "worthy", why _are_ they leaving?  The whole AT premise seems based
> on Simon's inflexibility and adherence to a strict guideline.  Heck, the
> Temp SB says that.  Yet apparently PC Templars can get away with it?
>

The Anti-Templars were formed after a fairly massive infraction of the rules -
Modeen wasn't just helping the unworthy, he helped the Black Hats (long-time
enemies of the Templars) win a fight. That's a little more serious than helping
a group of non-Silas chosen, some of whom were judged unworthy, against a road
gang.

PC Templars can get away with minor infractions, and are given a chance to
explain their actions, just like other Templars - you'll notice that Modeen
wasn't killed by Simon or anyone else in the Temple when he said what he'd done.
He tore off his tabard and walked out.

The Companion edge says that some people who want to be Templars just can't make
the hard moral decisions (big surprise) they need to - if someone joined the
Templars, and then later found they couldn't hack it, they might join the
Anti-Templars, but the Anti-Templars are now, I think, mostly made up of
ex-gangers and other folks recruited into an Anti-Templar warband, not
ex-Templars. That is just my POV, though - as you may have guessed, I think the
Templars, right now, are what the world needs most.

As for Anti-Templars, a couple of people have made the comparison to Dark Jedi
in Star Wars - I think something along the lines of the Dark Side mechanic in
the Star Wars RPG would be pretty useful, but then again, we already have it:
<minor spoilers>




PCs can become servitors through their actions, including Templars, although
they'd be blackballed, drummed out of the order, and have a death order placed
on their heads before they got to that stage, hopefully. Anti-Templars are more
likely to have this happen, whether or not they use their Reckoner powers,
(which, by the way, the Anti-Templar thinks it's OK for him to use, cause that's
what Modeen says) simply because they wander around killing Templars to get
Greater Rewards..

> Granted, if you the Marshall (via Simon) let PC Templars get away with that
> kind of stuff, it certainly makes the appeal of Anti-Templars much less.
> But it also blurs the distinction between them quite a bit.
>
> It's these kind of contradictions that have some of us puzzled.  If Simon
> isn't lenient, then Templar PCs would seem to not have many options.  But if
> he, then what's the point of the Oath and why are folks defecting to the
> ATs?  If he's okay with St. Hise and those who follow her, then he must be
> kinda lenient.  So...he's okay with Templars going against their Oath to
> keep Hise's benefits?!?
>

Like I said earlier, I don't think Templars are defecting to the ATs on a daily
basis, and again, check my other post for info on what Simon does with Templars
who receive the blessing of St. Hise.


Nick "IMAHO and IIQC" Coucouvinis