Re: [HOE] Explosions are their own reward, or something.

[Kirt Dankmyer aka Loki <xiombarg@earthlink.net>]

> That's not correct, is it?  Under the old system, Big Red would take 5d10
> damage (correct), but Shrink takes 4d10 and Sheol takes 3d10.  You're making
> _armor_ reductions based on BR radii, which is not correct as I recall.  You
> reduce by one die per BR, not one die _type_.

I'm pretty sure it's die types. The HoE rulebook says "drops a die," which is
ambiguous, IMHO. There's no example for a clarification. But when the same
system is repeated in the new edition of the Wierd West stuff, it explicitly
says "die type," confirming that interpretation (see below).
 
> And, as previously noted, you would roll the 3d10 for Sheol first.  Then you
> would roll one more dice of damage on top fo that for Shrink.  And then one
> more for Big Red.  That is five d10 and nothing else - no d8s or d6s
> involved.  It doesn't matter _what_ armor they're wearing - you roll a total
> of 5d10.
> 
> I think this was what I used in my previous "mathematics" and you didn't
> dispute it then.  But now you're noting you're using a different system.
> Which is fair enough, but I don't think you're using the published system in
> the rules above.  And we were discussing published systems, not variants,
> correct?

My way is the published system as I understand it. We can ask Hopler if we
like but it seems kinda moot as he prefers the new system. But, as I said,
subsequently published Deadlands material seems to indicate that the Pinnacle
folks intepreted it my way, and that it was not noted as an change from the
old Wierd West rules, which is where the HoE explosion rules come from in the
first place. This would imply that my intepretation is what was intended all
along.

Considering your interpretation of the rules, no wonder you found it simpler!

I didn't read your proof closely as I already knew the new system required
more die rolling, that's pretty obvious to me. But, as I said, not so much
more that it makes a difference, if you're at all prepared.
 
> >have to roll a hit location for *every* wound, and I have to remember the
> >special rule for massive damage and armor... And if people are wearing a
> >lot
> >of light armor, I'm gonna be rolling a d6 an awful lot, as opposed to, say,
> >once per person...
> >
> 
> See my previous example - you can easily and reasonably assume that half the
> wounds will go to the Guts (why roll for, say, 20 Wounds when on average
> 10-11 are going to go to the Guts anyway?).  And actually, that's where most
> of the damage is going to go and what (if anything) is going to seriously
> hurt the target character.

You can do the same under the new system as well, then. If you're going to
make simplifying assumptions under one system you should be fair and do the
same for the other.
 
> The light armor point is well-taken, although "an awful lot" in this case is
> 6 per person (tops).  This will be most painful if everyone wears nothing
> but Light Armor.  Which in your campaign may very well be the case.  For
> reasons stated below, that's not quite as onerous in my campaign, however.

Well, as I've stated 1000 times, if it works better in your campaign, great.
I'm just saying that in my experience using the new system isn't that hard.
 
> >New system: I know what's about to happen, so I have my 10d10 ready. No
> >matter
> >where they are on the field -- Shrink could be 100 feet away -- and I'm
> >still
> >rolling the same 10d10. Sure, I may have to roll them a lot, but I can do
> >it
> >rapid-fire as I'm used to the standard Deadlands damage system, which this
> >uses, unlike the above, and I can just keep picking up and throwing the
> >same
> >dice. The only variable is the number of times I have to do that, and
> >depending on what I roll, that doesn't have to be a lot. Big Red takes an
> >average of 3 hits (average of 1d6), Shrink takes an average of one (1d6-2),
> >and Sheol takes an average of two (1d6-1). That wasn't hard, and I don't
> >have
> >to drop die types (which always slows me down) just because my posse did
> >the
> >intelligent thing and spread out.
> >
> 
> Again, you don't seem to be using the published system "correctly" here.
> Either that, or all of your targets are wearing no armor or light armor.
> _If_ that is the case, then the system works better, agreed.  And for your
> campaign, the system may work.

Most characters I've dealt with have an infantry battlesuit at best. In which
case, I just have 10d6 ready as well, since I know the party's armor ahead of
time, while I don't know the party's ranges ahead of time, which was my
problem with the old system.
 
> But...if Shrink is wearing AV2 or AV1 (and on even one location), you no
> longer roll 10d10, correct?  You roll 10d8 or 10d6.  because under the new
> rules massive damage is treated "normally."  And normally means armor _does_
> reduce die type (and then die number when you hit a d4).
> 
> And if Shrink has AV2 on the head, but AV1 on the chest, and light Armor 4
> on the arms and legs, then you have to roll 10d8 _and_ 10d6 and 10d10 (and
> then subtracting 4), respectively.

Never seen anyone armored that way.

> You seem to be using a different system then the ones found in either the
> basic rules or Iron Oasis.  Again, if this system works for you, that's
> great.  But those aren't the systems that were originally posted for
> discussion.  Or...you have a campaign with your PCs only wear light armor.

As I said, infantry battlesuit at best.
 
> As noted previously, yes, we tried the new rules.  However, the system you
> use/used above for the old rules is not correct.  You are using the new
> system as published, but seem to have a campaign where no one wears anything
> but (at best) light armor.  If you have such a campaign, then yes, I would
> agree that the new rules in this case are easier to implement.

I disagree about the old rules, but as I said, since I use the new rules now,
the point is moot.

> There are certainly some advantages to PCs only using light armor (i.e., it
> reduces AP rounds' damage by a die and AP rounds get no benefit).  However,
> ultimately my PCs have gone with AVs rather than light armor and I've got to
> base my conclusions on that.  Or is such a mentality an abnormality?

In my experience, only cyborgs have anything besides leather armor. Some lucky
few buy infantry battlesuits.

Also, I have to agree with the person who mentioned that smart posses
generally avoid explosions entirely. ;)
	-Loki