Re: [HoE] Junker Armor

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

>You figure component costs based on the slots used by the power, not by
>the total in the device.  That's in the rules for constructing devices,
>it wasn't necessary to reiterate it for Armor (look at it this way, if
>you were using the Armor power in building a car, you would only figure
>components from the slots that Armor used, not the passenger
>compartment)
>

Do you?  See my previous post - the Locomotion rules do _not_ entirely work 
that way, if the Marv's Motorcycle example is correct.  Or do you consider 
"cargo space" to be part of the "power" of Locomotion?

The Armor rules vis a vis Locomotion are spelled out a lot more clearly, 
too.

[various snippage]

><<Ummm, does anyone see a problem with this? You need to pay $750 to buy
>a
>   Kevlar vest which has much less protection, and loses a pt. of armor
>against
>   certain attacks.>>
>No. No problem at all.  First, junker armor loses Durability, and has to
>make Stability rolls.  You may have a very good Stability roll, but any
>decent burst fire weapon could make you take 3 checks or more PER

See my previous note:  I'm not sure I _want_ to throw more die-rolling at 
the system, particularly since combat has so many already.  Particularly 
when such die-rolling (per hit, rather than per day) is counter-indicated by 
the Junker rules.  I'm not adverse to the latter, but when anybody suggests, 
"Yeah, make more rolls during combat" (particularly when this is a roll that 
you then have to go to a chart to interpret), I start to get a headache...  
;)

>ACTION.  Second, it's all in the markup.  A junker builds stuff, then
>sells it for what he can get for it.  Take a look at production costs
>relative to retail costs for anything nowadays, and you'll find that
>kind of price increase not unusual at all.  if I knew how to build my
>own car, I wouldn't be spending $15,000 on it, would I?
>

Sure.  But we're not really talking mark-up, and you'd have to arbitrarily 
(and consistently) mark it up to balance it out in that manner in any case.

Rather, presumably the prices generated by Junker cost/components (and 
listed for items) are a _baseline_ to compare relative prices.  That's the 
baseline that's used for, say, buying Gear at the beginning of the game.  
Okay, I can claim that "Yeah, Armor is rare in [Location of your choice} 
that you folks are at, pay double."  But is someone supposed to mark up 
starting prices too?

The baseline has to generate consistent values so that you can _then_ mark 
stuff up or down.  In this case, it seems to be the baselines themselves 
that are at fault.

Also, who necessarily said anything about the Junker selling it?  Rather, 
it's a matter of what he _pays_ to make the Armor, for his (and his party's, 
potentially) personal use.  That means I've got to get into marking up 
components that the folks purchase, at, say, Junkyard.  And again, to 
consistently keep Armor "balanced" in this manner, I'd have to consistently 
and arbitrarily set the component cost, rather than base it on fluctuating 
circumstances involved in typical consumer mark-up.

And finally...I'm already applying a 100% mark-up for costs (see my 
calculations), and you're still getting a superior suit for half the cost 
you'd pay for mere Kevlar.

[some snippage]

><<"load" rules (page 85) suggests that basically, all that heavy
>   armor is going to do (and 35# isn't _that_ heavy) is going to, tops,
>reduce
>   your pace to 25%. Not the best thing in the world, sure, but without
>   whipping up Strain/encumberance-inducing rules and stuff, not going to
>be
>   very harmful, either>>
>Huh?
>Hmmm, only being able to move at 1/4 the usual rate isn't bad?  I
>suppose it's not, if you plan to stand in one place and let the Black
>Hats blow your ass up.  How's about that fact that reducing your Pace to
>25% means that the rest of the group has to slow down to accomodate you
>clunking around inside a pile of car bumpers and benzadrine?

The whole point of armor is making it more difficult for folks to blow your 
ass up (thus the Robohunter archetype in the HoE Companion, who doesn't 
strike me as very mobile either).  Your mileage may certainly vary, but most 
of our group's fights are "stand-and-fight" skirmishes.  That's why 
they're...ummm, fights, and not chase sequences.

(I'll grant that I'm not particularly fond of movement during combat, as it 
strikes us as perhaps the most clunky of the various systems.  Also, since 
you suffer penalties for firing and moving, it tends to hose over PCs in a 
bullet/resource-rare environment.)

On the short term, we have enough folks with low Nimbleness, Limps, and 
what-not that a Pace of, say, 2.5 due to Load is not that important.  In the 
long term, they drive places so a low Pace doesn't matter (and wouldn't tend 
to impact the rest of the group with the handicaps mentioned above anyway).  
Either way, there's not much "slowing down."

>You want encumbrance that costs Wind? Here ya go:
>Walking around with a 35-pound backpack over a distance isn't a problem
>for most folks.  But when the fit hits the shan and the group gets
>chased down by some mutated baddie or whatever, guess who's gonna be
>spending most of his actions and Wind on pickin' up the pace?  I see the
>man in the armor suit trying to raise his hand...

*scatches head* That seems to be missing the point that folks are taking 
high armor to _avoid_ being "chased down".  As in any combat situation, you 
choose between heavy armor and firepower with low mobility, or light armor 
and firepower with high mobility.  There are certainly advantages to each, 
but random stray shots, ambushes, stuff like that tend to pick off the 
latter more than the former.

I could of course "penalize" folks in this manner and create such encounters 
where they absolutely must run.  But penalize them for doing what, exactly?  
Buying cheap AV2?  Are we saying that players shouldn't try to get the best 
buy for their characters?

>Plus, wasn't there some unofficial encumbrace eratta posted to the list
>by Hopler that involved using Wind for lifting really heavy weights?
>--

Don't know.  *checks accumulated rulings* Don't see it.  I'd certainly be 
thinking of some simple Wind/round vs. Armor Level/weight kind of thing.  
But wouldn't have an idea of where to start.  That's why I, like, buy 
sourcebooks and stuff.

Besides, again...we seem to be getting back into this whole "penalizing" 
thing.  So we (presumably) want smart players who play (mostly) smart 
characters, but if they're too smart, we jump in and penalize them in some 
way?

Granted, that doesn't mean blatant loopholes shouldn't be sealed up.  But if 
this Armor thing _is_ a blatant loophole (have we determined that yet?), why 
not just say, "Hey, this doesn't work - here's the fix" rather than let 
folks use it and then come up with ways to penalize them when they use it.  
The latter takes much less time and is less of an ongoing kind of thing.

My problem here is that I'm not sure _how_ to make it work without adding 
even more die-rolling and obtuse Wind systems.

From Whom it May Concern,
>Rich Ranallo, The Man They Couldn't Hang


---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/

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