Re: [HOE] Explosions are their own reward, or something.

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

> > That's not correct, is it?  Under the old system, Big Red would take 
>5d10
> > damage (correct), but Shrink takes 4d10 and Sheol takes 3d10.  You're 
>making
> > _armor_ reductions based on BR radii, which is not correct as I recall.  
>You
> > reduce by one die per BR, not one die _type_.
>
>I'm pretty sure it's die types. The HoE rulebook says "drops a die," which 
>is
>ambiguous, IMHO. There's no example for a clarification. But when the same
>system is repeated in the new edition of the Wierd West stuff, it 
>explicitly
>says "die type," confirming that interpretation (see below).
>

I know the old Deadlands rules states "drop a die."  I don't have the new 
rules (not being a Deadlands player at this time).  I can see why it could 
go either way.

>My way is the published system as I understand it. We can ask Hopler if we
>like but it seems kinda moot as he prefers the new system. But, as I said,
>subsequently published Deadlands material seems to indicate that the 
>Pinnacle
>folks intepreted it my way, and that it was not noted as an change from the
>old Wierd West rules, which is where the HoE explosion rules come from in 
>the
>first place. This would imply that my intepretation is what was intended 
>all
>along.
>

Fair enough.  :)  And yes, that makes the old system much harder to use.  I 
don't know if, statistically, doing it one way or another (drop a die per BR 
or drop a die type) makes an appreciable difference.

> > See my previous example - you can easily and reasonably assume that half 
>the
> > wounds will go to the Guts (why roll for, say, 20 Wounds when on average
> > 10-11 are going to go to the Guts anyway?).  And actually, that's where 
>most
> > of the damage is going to go and what (if anything) is going to 
>seriously
> > hurt the target character.
>
>You can do the same under the new system as well, then. If you're going to
>make simplifying assumptions under one system you should be fair and do the
>same for the other.
>

Sure, but it doesn't help much in the new system.  If I roll a d6 and hit 4 
locations, I can assume that 2 of those go to the Guts, sure.  But then I 
have to roll the 10d10/8/6 whatever.  And I still have to roll the damage to 
the arms/legs/head/whatever.

It matters more under the old system because you have a lot more wound 
locations to roll (1 per wound!).  Since you'll never have more than 6 
location rolls to consider under the new rules, it's not particularly 
onerous there.

I offered the averaging as a way to get around one of the potential problems 
of the old system.  Rolling die for location under the new rules isn't a 
problem with those rules, IMO.

>Most characters I've dealt with have an infantry battlesuit at best. In 
>which
>case, I just have 10d6 ready as well, since I know the party's armor ahead 
>of
>time, while I don't know the party's ranges ahead of time, which was my
>problem with the old system.
>

But an Infantry Battlesuit doesn't cover all locations equally, does it 
(there's no included Helmet - I'm sure of that!).

Again if everyone wears the exact same type of armor on all locations, I can 
see how the new system would be less die-rolling.  Unfortunately, I've never 
had that benefit (and IBs are expensive! ;) ).

> > And if Shrink has AV2 on the head, but AV1 on the chest, and light Armor 
>4
> > on the arms and legs, then you have to roll 10d8 _and_ 10d6 and 10d10 
>(and
> > then subtracting 4), respectively.
>
>Never seen anyone armored that way.
>

And I've never seen anyone armored the way you have, either.  :)  HoE is 
very much a catch-as-catch-can equipping system.  There's dusters, and 
infantry battlesuits, and Templar gifts (Greater Gift gives AV1), and 
helmets...and none of it is cheap.  It's certainly possible that everyone in 
the group might end up with the exact same level of armor on all locations 
(if they all pooled their resources, or made a deliberate decision to all 
take the same Belongin's during character creation).  I've just never seen 
it happen.  Which brings us back to "whatever works best in your campaign, 
yada yada"  ;)

> > You seem to be using a different system then the ones found in either 
>the
> > basic rules or Iron Oasis.  Again, if this system works for you, that's
> > great.  But those aren't the systems that were originally posted for
> > discussion.  Or...you have a campaign with your PCs only wear light 
>armor.
>
>As I said, infantry battlesuit at best.
>

Well, it requires one more calculation so it's not the best.  Light Armor -4 
really seems to be "the best" since it has other benefits (like reducing the 
damage of AP rounds).  Also depends on how much damage you're dealing with.  
I'm no mathematician, but the more dice of damage involved, the more 
beneficial armor is (since it reduces the die type of _each_ of those die), 
right?

>Also, I have to agree with the person who mentioned that smart posses
>generally avoid explosions entirely. ;)

Under either system it's not a mechanic I look forward to implementing 
either.  But it's "built in" to so many NPC threats (Black Hats have a 
grenade, Automatons self-destruct, any intelligent Doombringer/Doomsayer is 
going to take Nuke or ICBM) that it's rather hard to avoid.  And if you play 
such NPCs intelligently, they'll be going to the same efforts to hit your 
PCs with explosions as your PCs will be taking to avoid explosions.

In any case, thanks for the clarification.  I must admit, the "drop a die" 
thing is mildly unclear.  I still prefer the system I suggested upon further 
consideration (i.e., use the old system literally, i.e., "drop a die" rather 
than "drop a die type", ignore the new Deadland rules I don't have anyway 
and Pinnacle seems to have no interest in making generally available to 
HoE-only players, and then find a constant to multiple by for final damage.

In fact, a further simplification might be to say that all explosives do the 
_same_ damage, say, 5d10.  Then explosives would have two variable factors:  
Burst Radius and Damage Multiplier.  A grenade might be a x2 multiplier, a 
self-destructing automaton might be x4.

(And yes, this is a proposal for a new home-rule system, so no one needs to 
say that you are or are not forced to use this, that or the other.  Maybe 
such a statement should be in the list greeting so it doesn't have to be 
repeated ad nausem?  :) )

Just a thought.  Again, at the heart of my interest lies this:  too much die 
rolling already, reduce the amount.  The old system had some (and even more 
if you use the "correct" rules), the new system has at least as much, maybe 
a bit less.

>	-Loki


---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/

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