Re: [HOE] W:tA and HoE (was Sic Transit Black River)

[AJSolis@aol.com]

In a message dated 9/8/2000 1:15:28 AM Central Daylight Time, 
Fuzyn9feet@email.msn.com writes:
 
>  If your Marshal's a nice guy...
   Well, it says its possible in the books, but I guess you have a point 
there.  I'm aware of people disliking that very idea on the deadlands lists.  

> I just looked over the rules and they are harder to put down as long a they
> have Rage or Fate Chips (to convert to Rage). Silver, fire electricity,
> direct magic (like Soul Blast {I have a question about this later}) or
> supernatural critters are the only true way to take down a Garou. Under Rage
> it states that if the Gaou takes a maiming wound to the head or guts they
> can roll a d6 for each Rage point with a TN of 9 and for each success and
> raise they heal a wound level even if it's Agg (again the only damage that
>  would kill a Garou). But I guess a clever Marshal could do something about
>  that (I'm sure it would be simple pickings for Goff :).
   Werewolf storytellers certainly don't seem to have that much of a problem 
killing Garou.  :)
   Oh, as for soul blast, yes it does make sense that it would do Agg to a 
Garou.  Spiritual attacks do Agg damage to Garou, and soul blast is a 
manitou's energy being hurled at someone, that's pretty spiritual.  So 
actually there would be a lot of Agg attacks for Garou in hell on earth and 
the weird west.  That's another quirk in this particular crossover.  
  
> >     One of the quirks of the deadlands/WoD crossover is that the cosmology
>  of
>  > deadlands means such crossovers are hard to say no to on a cosmological
> > basis, although on the game balance level it's another matter.
>  
> I love the idea of it, but I'm the kind of Marshal that makes my players
> justify why they should get the edge Veteran.
    Oh yes, I can see why.  Game balance issues are tricky.  There probably 
are groups in which a particular player character being more powerful isn't 
an issue, either the other PCs don't care about it one way or the other, or 
the other PCs are still useful at other things, although that can be seen as 
an example for first case I suppose.  For other groups its the kiss of death. 
  
  
> Yes, they are enlightened-like, mutated, shamanistic and Junker-like but
> "their wiring is different" (to borrow a phrase from Templars).
> A Kailindoist may have some great Martial Arts and neat moves but use
> Kailindo and not Chi' powers.
    In my view, having a kailindoka be enlightened as well is just a matter 
of making them pay for what they already have.  A kailindoka with the proper 
maneuver can root themselves to the ground and be virtually impossible to 
move, or know just where to hit someone to give them asthma.  In a crossover 
would you allow a non enlightened person to have such martial feats?  I 
wouldn't.  

> Metis are imbread not mutated so the Doomie's wouldn't see them as "chosen"
> but to a community of mutains it may be a case of "Tomato" "Tomoto".
   Well, technically Metis are indeed mutants, they have always harmful but 
sometimes useful differences from their parents.  :)
    On a less facetious note, Metis to me would be another form of mutation.  
HoE mutants are mutated by spiritual radiation, creating mutations on a 
physical as well as spiritual level.  I'd say that Metis are mutated 
physically as well as spiritually as well, although because of their nature 
instead of nurture.  
    Even if you disagreed, the largest batch of Metis are BSDs, and 
considering their fondness for balefire I figure in a crossover they would be 
mutants in addition to often Metis.  

> Their Junkerness is a weaker a version. Look what a Junker can make compared
> to Fetishes.
  I don't know if I would say weaker.  Glass walkers can make jet packs, or 
missile launchers that never miss.  Or cyberlegs that allow one to leap 
hundreds of feet, or step into the hunting grounds.  

> Some work the spirits, some don't. They are shamanistic and not a Shamans
> them self so they don't use the rules or powers.
   I wouldn't say some, I would say the vast majority.  Totem relationships 
are normal for Garou (all packs have one to be considered a proper pack, and 
almost all Garou are in packs), learning spiritual rituals is quite easy for 
them (since any Garou can start off with a ritual or to, or some knowledge of 
how to work rituals), and gifts which every Garou have unless they are a lost 
cub or similar are in fact just channeling the powers of a spirit (just as a 
shaman who uses the strength of the bear favor).  Shamanism is hardwired into 
their nature.  

> I can see a Garou Companion (as in Templar edge Companion) and with the
> Ancestor Spirits helping them it works but I don't see them having access to
> the Templar powers.
    Although there is an easy way to even disallow such if you'd like.  In 
Werewolf, a Garou can only have one active totem relationship (which is an 
odd ruling really, since a Garou could conceivably have a totem and a 
familiar spirit, and there isn't much difference between the two).  Since the 
patronage of a Templar martyr is basically a totem relationship without the 
shamanic trappings, you could discount such a combination.
 
> If you have the Umbra book they discuses "Cyberwolves" so there is an easy
>  way out of this. Junker cyberware has spirits in it. So I agree with you
> here.
   Cyberwolves in umbra the velvet shadow and the cyberdog camp in the 
players guide, but my point was actually a physical limitation.  Garou can 
naturally shapeshift and step sideways into the spirit world.  Items don't go 
with them unless they are dedicated.  A nondedicated shirt would rip into 
shreds with transformation, or be left behind when the Garou steps sideways.  
A Garou with a cyberarm that isn't dedicated is going to be a wolf with a 
metallic human limb (rather awkward) when they transform, or are going to be 
three limbed after entering the hunting grounds.  
   And Garou are limited to their permanent gnosis in dedicated items, a 
cyberdog with gnosis three is only going to be able to have three pieces of 
cyberware, or run the risk of leaving their cybertorso in the real world.  
Can you say ouch?  :)  
   Oh yes a game balance rule that actually makes sense in werewolf involves 
cyberware.  A piece of cyberware designed to work for a Garou or other 
similar shapeshifter is only half as effective.  Although it doesn't say as 
much, I believe the reasoning behind it is thus: a Samson system for example 
would have to be specifically designed to work for all five of a garou's 
forms, therefore it is less focused and less specialized.  

> Point taken.
    And oh yes, unless the implication wasn't clear, I see the crossover 
would have to be two sided rules wise, I'm not trying to preach Garou 
superiority or anything.  Garou are shamanic, well shamans would have access 
to Garou abilities as well (rites and gifts, and would be able to make Garou 
fetishes as well).    
    If you add ancestor spirits to the saints, then there would be a similar 
result: there ought to be appropriate gift like powers made available to 
Templars, since ancestor spirits are the spirits that teach Garou certain 
gifts.  
   A Junker should be able to incorporate gift like powers into their devices 
for the same reason: a Junker is able to put a technospirit into a device, a 
glass walker is capable of doing the same, there should be the possibility of 
getting the same result. 
   And so on.  To my way of thinking the crossover would increase options on 
both sides.