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RE: [pyrnet] Black Pyrenees, White Newf...



Hi Joe, Barb and Linda,
 
This is an extremely interesting thread. I am of course no expert in dog coat colorations, but I have done some research in Horses. I was wondering if some of the same genetics as far as colour genes may be similar. Please excuse my intrusion and ramblings as I'm thinking out loud here.
Horses I'm sure you know is an animal where extensive study has been done on the subject, as people strive to guarantee certain colour and coat patterns...i.e.: Paints, Appaloosas, Palomino's etc. Although they do not always get the desired results :(
 
As in horses, true white horses (albino) are very rare. Most white horses are actually grey horses which have faded to white. The same is true for black horses. A black horse is also extremely rare (except in the case of breeds like the Friesian who breed for it) most black horses are actually a very dark brown.
 
Linda's extreme piebald theory seems like a very good explanation, as I've never read the book she mentions and it may explain further detail and suggest a similar explanation..... I would also suggest for discussion, that maybe they also have the dominate "greying" gene or a "dilution" gene as well.
 
Which might explain why alot are born with color, and it fades as they age. Firm rule in horse breeding, you never breed a Grey horse to a Paint if you want the coloration to stay. Or a Palomino (dilution gene) to a Paint for the same reason.
 
In the case of the dilution gene, if is homozygous, it will result in any colour becoming diluted to a very pale cream or white.
Appaloosa breeders steer away from the dilution factor as it lightens the dark pigment, so there is little or no contrast between the white and the colour in the horses coat.
 
According to Ann Bowling, PHD at the Veterinary Genetics laboratory at UC Davis; "Despite the great variety in coat colours, they're all created by the presence or absence of two pigments, eumelanin (black/brown) and phaeomelanin (red/yellow). It's believed that these two pigments may be influenced by other genes that can alter the coat colour, diluting it or producing patterns."
 
So in theory, maybe Pyr's are actually not white but have the colour gene's (red/yellow) or (black/brow) pigment in a Overo coat pattern and the dilution gene, which makes their coat fade to either white or white with pale colouration. Or the combination of the greying gene with the piebald.
 
Again just thinking out loud.
Sariena
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pyrnet-l@pyrnet.org [mailto:owner-pyrnet-l@pyrnet.org]On Behalf Of JGentzel@aol.com
Sent: 8-Jul-02 8:43 AM
To: pyrnet-l@pyrnet.org
Subject: Re: [pyrnet] Black Pyrenees, White Newf...

In a message dated 7/8/02 8:17:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lmweisser@attbi.com writes:


.  Pyrs are identified as extreme piebald in Little's book The
Inheritance of Coat Color In Dogs which is, decades later, still considered
the "bible" of color inheritance.  Now, there has been some debate over the
identification of Pyrs with this inheritance pattern.  That is a legitimate
debate but no "better" explanation has been put forward.  


Here is part of a web site by the  
Department of Animal and Poultry Science

University of Saskatchewan

Saskatoon, Canada S7N 5A8



Some pure white animals are albinos. Little discussed albinism in dogs but this condition is probably rare. This white Samoyed/Husky cross has a black nose and eyes and is therefore not an albino. Little suggests that the white of Samoyeds is due to the allele (sw), which he claims is the lowest allele of the series at spotting, meaning it is the most recessive in that series. However, this crossbred suggests that Samoyed white is dominant. No data are yet available for which gene actually causes this white or the white of Great Pyrenees.

This site is purported to be a summery of the accepted publications on the Color in Dogs and used Little's work as its main template.

The subject is not definitive at all and we should look carefully at it.

Joe