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Re: RE: [HoE] Junkman Cometh/Huckster ?
> > I guess I'm not following. If I draw a pair in the HoE universe, using
>the
> > new rules, while casting, say Bodyguard, I still negate two and only
>Wounds,
> > correct?
>
>By Hucksters and Hexes:-
> The better the hand a huckster gets, the more powerful
>the manitou he's beaten and the power he can get.
> Therefore, the more powerful the hex (the poker hand),
>the bigger the manitou was.
>
Sure. But the new system doesn't give you a better chance of getting a more
powerful manitou (i.e., assure that you draw more cards, improve the
strength of the hand you do get).
I think we both agree that yes, the better the hand, the more powerful the
manitou and/or the more power the Huckster draws from that manitou. That's
how it works in Deadlands. I just don't see how the new system reflects a
Huckster being able to get more power when he taps into a more powerful
Manitou.
> > Now, the minimum hand for Bodyguard is an Ace, which I ignore. So I got
>to
> > skip the less powerful Hex level/effect. But I don't see any way that
>that
> > somehow makes my Pair more powerful. Two Wounds is Two Wounds, right?
>
>Yes, two wounds is two wounds.
>The hand needed is the same, because the manitou power
>level for that effect is the same in HoE and Deadlands.
>The thing is, in Deadlands there are weaker manitou that
>can be beaten with an Ace - but not in HoE.
>
>The minimum hand to cast a hex is higher; as a consequence,
>the effect of the hex is stronger.
>
Ummm, that's where I'd disagree. Eliminating a lesser effect does not make
a Hex "stronger." Maybe in some overall statistical sense it does (because
you've eliminated the lowest point on the bell curve). However, you haven't
raised the chance of getting the next highest point on the bell curve (i.e.,
a Pair), nor have you increased the chance of getting a higher hand in
general. You've merely substituted a "failure" for a "Ace" (or Jacks, or
whatever the low minimum for a particular hex is).
Also, if in HoE I cast Bodyguard, and I draw a Pair, it is exactly as strong
as it was in Deadlands.
>In character terms, the huckster was to challenge a more
>powerful manitou because there are no weaker ones around.
>If he beats it, his hex is more powerful.
>
More powerful than what? The manitou he captured that represents drawing a
Pair is exactly the same strength HoE as it was Deadlands. In no way is the
hex result "stronger." If I draw a Royal Flush, the hex effect is no
stronger, or powerful, or whatever, than it was in Deadlands.
Now, maybe I'm misunderstanding something. Are you saying that if you get
(for the example of Bodyguard) an Ace that it is considered the next highest
rank? If so, that makes sense. You've tapped into a Manitou that is more
powerful than the wimpy Ace one you normally would have got.
However, that isn't my understanding of how the new system works. And I
don't think you're saying that. It might make sense to balance out the
system (and it "logically" makes sense to me, although your mileage may vary
;) ).
Right now, a "Pair" Manitou is the same strength in Deadlands or HoE. A
Royal Flush is the same strenght/power as it was in Deadlands. My chance of
drawing it is the same (although my chance of surviving it is considerably
less). The effect generated when I draw him is the same. How has this Hex
become "more powerful"?
> >
> > (I'm quoting from memory here, so if I'm off by a Wound or so, forgive
>me.)
> >
> > The new rules don't assure you get a higher hand, or make the hand you
>draw
> > more powerful - they simply eliminate a lower hand from giving you _any_
> > effect. I don't see how this somehow makes a Hex effect more powerful,
>as I
> > suggested.
>
>It doesn't make a hex effect more powerful - it means the
>power level of hexes in HoE is higher than in Deadlands,
>since a higher hand is required in the first place.
>
Ummm, that's where I'd have to disagree again, except maybe in some overall
statistical sense. The power level of any given Hex casting is _exactly_
the same. A Pair is a Pair is a Pair.
Either that, or it's a meaningless statement. Who cares if the "power level
of hexes" is higher? What advantage does this give to a PC Huckster that
outweighs the three disadvantages heaped upon him?
>To get a hex to work, you need a good hand. If you get it,
>the hex is powerful.
>
>Example - You're Out!
>
>In Deadlands, it needs an Ace.
>In HoE, it needs a pair.
>In Deadlands, the minimum affect (Ace) is to swipe three
>bullets.
>In HoE, the minumum effect (Pair) is to swipe six bullets.
>
>
>The hex hasn't miraculously become more powerful - it's
>just that when it works, it works better.
>
But...it doesn't work better. When I draw a Pair, it works exactly the
same, Deadlands or HoE. How is this "better"? All that's happened is here
is that I've lost a lesser (but still useful) effect.
> >
> > My understanding is that the game of mental poker represents how much
> > power/effect you finesse from the manitou you're dueling with. However,
>if
> > that manitou is more powerful, wouldn't it make sense that the final
> > hand/effect you achieve would be boosted a level because in addition to
>the
> > finesse, the power of the manitou itself kicks up the power/effect?
> >
> > That's what I meant by "more powerful." The current HoE huckster system
> > doesn't make your Pair, or your Two Pair, or whatever, have a more
>powerful
> > effect as far as I can tell
>
>If the huckster wins the battle of wills, the manitou has
>to dance to his tune. The higher the hand your huckster
>got, the stronger the manitou he beat, the more power it
>has, and the bigger the hex effect.
>
Sure - wouldn't dispute that. But that is exactly the same in Deadlands and
HoE. Nothing changes, which means that the disadvantages are still
unbalanced by any counter advantages. In no way is this "better."
>If all manitou are more powerful, all hucksters need a
>higher hand, and all their hexes will have a bigger effect.
>
>
>The strength of the manitou you beat is reflected in the
>poker hand a huckster draws - an Ace doesn't beat some
>unGodly super-powered manitou, it beats a wuss.
>
>In HoE, all the wusses have became mediocre after Judgement
>Day - you need a pair to beat them and get a mediocre
>effect.
>
Again, that's understood. But if the HoE Huckster can no longer draw on
those lesser (but still useful in many cases) Manitous, and he needs harder
card combinations, and the hands he does get represent _exactly_ the same
effects that he got in Deadlands...how is this in any way represent the
Huckster gaining the benefit of more powerful Manitous? Or show that the
Hexes are "better"?
The more powerful Manitous are out there, but the new system gives the
Huckster no way to benefit from their increased power. You can get screwed
by their increased power (i.e., higher backlash chances, no lowest-level
ones to draw on), sure.
I think we're talking about two different things. Yes, Manitous are more
powerful. But Hexes have not become more powerful or "better". You've
replaced in a series of 15 hex-castings, say:
5-Aces
4-Pairs
3-Jacks
2-Two Pairs
1-Three of a Kind
with:
5-Failures
4-Pairs
3-Jacks
2-Two Pairs
1-Three of a kind
I guess I'm not seeing how the latter is somehow represents a more powerful
or "better" Hex. And that's my point. Not that the Manitous are more
powerful (that's a given), but that Hexes became less powerful. Because the
Huckster has no Ace-rank Manitous to draw on, he is screwed by the high
power levels of Manitous. There is no corollary benefit.
Now maybe, "logically," Hucksters shouldn't gain any benefits from the more
powerful overall level of Manitous. As indeed, they currently don't seem
to. But in that case see my previous comment about logic being an idiot in
that case.
---
Steve Crow
"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"
Check out my website at: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/
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