Re: RE: [HoE] Junkman Cometh/Huckster ?

[Steve Wallace <ceesrw@cee.hw.ac.uk>]

> Sure. But the new system doesn't give you a better chance of getting a more 
> powerful manitou (i.e., assure that you draw more cards, improve the 
> strength of the hand you do get).

HoE doesn't seem to be meant to make hucksters cast more 
powerful hexes all the time, though - they have to struggle 
for their power more now than they did in Deadlands.
That's why they get hit with extra backlash - the manitou 
bite back harder than before.

> 
> I think we both agree that yes, the better the hand, the more powerful the 
> manitou and/or the more power the Huckster draws from that manitou.  That's 
> how it works in Deadlands.  I just don't see how the new system reflects a 
> Huckster being able to get more power when he taps into a more powerful 
> Manitou.

I think that although manitou as a group have become more 
powerful, it's only really noticable at the lowest level - 
when a huckster needs an Ace for his hex.  Manitou aren't 
that weak anymore.

<snippage>

> >The minimum hand to cast a hex is higher; as a consequence,
> >the effect of the hex is stronger.
> 
> Ummm, that's where I'd disagree.  Eliminating a lesser effect does not make 
> a Hex "stronger."  Maybe in some overall statistical sense it does (because 
> you've eliminated the lowest point on the bell curve).  However, you haven't 
> raised the chance of getting the next highest point on the bell curve (i.e., 
> a Pair), nor have you increased the chance of getting a higher hand in 
> general.  You've merely substituted a "failure" for a "Ace" (or Jacks, or 
> whatever the low minimum for a particular hex is).
> 
> Also, if in HoE I cast Bodyguard, and I draw a Pair, it is exactly as strong 
> as it was in Deadlands.

I think I wasn't clear before:-
The minimum hand is higher; the minimum effect is higher.  
A HoE Pair isn't stronger than a DL Pair, it's just the 
minimum requirement for the hex.  

> 
> >In character terms, the huckster was to challenge a more
> >powerful manitou because there are no weaker ones around.
> >If he beats it, his hex is more powerful.
> >
> 
> More powerful than what?  The manitou he captured that represents drawing a 
> Pair is exactly the same strength HoE as it was Deadlands.  In no way is the 
> hex result "stronger."  If I draw a Royal Flush, the hex effect is no 
> stronger, or powerful, or whatever, than it was in Deadlands.

The manitou he has to challenge is more powerful than the 
one that fuels an Ace hex in DL - they don't seem to exist 
anymore.  If his hex works, it has to work on a Pair, which 
is more powerful than an Ace.
Hands haven't become more powerful than before.

> 
> Now, maybe I'm misunderstanding something.  Are you saying that if you get 
> (for the example of Bodyguard) an Ace that it is considered the next highest 
> rank?  If so, that makes sense.  You've tapped into a Manitou that is more 
> powerful than the wimpy Ace one you normally would have got.

No - I'm saying Ace hexes do not work.  If a hex works, it 
is at least a Pair, which is more powerful than an Ace.  
The minimum hex cast is more powerful in HoE than Deadlands.

<snippage>

> Right now, a "Pair" Manitou is the same strength in 
Deadlands or HoE.  A 
> Royal Flush is the same strenght/power as it was in Deadlands.  My chance of 
> drawing it is the same (although my chance of surviving it is considerably 
> less).  The effect generated when I draw him is the same.  How has this Hex 
> become "more powerful"?

It hasn't.

<more snippage>

> >It doesn't make a hex effect more powerful - it means the
> >power level of hexes in HoE is higher than in Deadlands,
> >since a higher hand is required in the first place.
> >
> 
> Ummm, that's where I'd have to disagree again, except maybe in some overall 
> statistical sense.  The power level of any given Hex casting is _exactly_ 
> the same.  A Pair is a Pair is a Pair.

All hexes must get a minimum hand one rank higher than 
before.  As a result, if a hex works to minimum effect in 
HoE it is more powerful than it is if it works to minimum 
effect in Deadlands.

A Pair is a Pair is a Pair, and it beats an Ace is an Ace 
is an Ace.

So, all hexes cast in HoE with a minimum hand have to be 
stronger in effect than in Deadlands with a minimum hand, 
because they have been cast with a higher poker hand.

The average effect of hexes that have been cast is higher, 
since the minimum hand is higher.  Do hucksters still get 
the shaft?  Yup.  Is it easier to get a more powerful hex?  
Nope.  If you do manage to succeed in a hex, it's going to 
have a more noticable effect than in Deadlands.

<big-ass snippage>

Ooops - my bad.  The words 'lowest hand' should have been 
in that post far more than they were...

> >
> >If the huckster wins the battle of wills, the manitou has
> >to dance to his tune.  The higher the hand your huckster
> >got, the stronger the manitou he beat, the more power it
> >has, and the bigger the hex effect.
> >
> 
> Sure - wouldn't dispute that.  But that is exactly the same in Deadlands and 
> HoE.  Nothing changes, which means that the disadvantages are still 
> unbalanced by any counter advantages.  In no way is this "better."

But hucksters aren't supposed to be 'better' in HoE.  Why 
should they be?  The manitou hurt more than they did.

<snippage>

> Again, that's understood.  But if the HoE Huckster can no longer draw on 
> those lesser (but still useful in many cases) Manitous, and he needs harder 
> card combinations, and the hands he does get represent _exactly_ the same 
> effects that he got in Deadlands...how is this in any way represent the 
> Huckster gaining the benefit of more powerful Manitous?  Or show that the 
> Hexes are "better"?

He gets a better hand, he's got a better manitou - that's 
how it works.  If he needs a higher hand than before, he 
needs a stronger manitou and gets a stronger effect.  He 
gains the benefit of more powerful manitou in the stronger 
minimum effect , but gets the disadvantage that he hasn't 
got wuss manitou to pul off a wuss hex with. 

Result - hexing is harder than before.  It hurts more than 
before.  If a huckster gets the minimum hand for a hex, it 
works better than before (the old minimum hand) because the 
hand that powers the hex is now higher.

The huckster doesn't really gain any benefit from more 
powerful manitou - it makes it tougher to hex.  The only 
real benefit (the higher minimum effect for a hex) is 
offset by the increased difficulty of that hex.  Not a real 
benefit, because the hand needed is higher.

TJC doesn't say 'hexes are better in HoE', does it?  I 
recall it saying hucksters get the shaft quite regularly 
though...

<snippage>
 
> I guess I'm not seeing how the latter is somehow represents a more powerful 
> or "better" Hex.  And that's my point.  Not that the Manitous are more 
> powerful (that's a given), but that Hexes became less powerful.  Because the 
> Huckster has no Ace-rank Manitous to draw on, he is screwed by the high 
> power levels of Manitous.  There is no corollary benefit.
> 
> Now maybe, "logically," Hucksters shouldn't gain any benefits from the more 
> powerful overall level of Manitous.  As indeed, they currently don't seem 
> to.  But in that case see my previous comment about logic being an idiot in 
> that case.

Hexes are more difficult.  No argument.
Manitou are meaner than before.  No argument.
Hexes are not more powerful than before.  No argument.

Ta da!

However, hexes that work at minimum effect in HoE work 
better than hexes at minimum effect in DL.  Yes, it's 
because of the different minimum hand ranks.

That does show manitou getting meaner.
It has the side effect that on average, successful hexes in 
HoE are more powerful than successful hexes in DL.  
There are no hexes cast on a hand of Ace, all hexes need a 
hand rank one higher to work.  As a result, the average HoE 
hex is more powerful in effect than in DL, because it uses 
a higher hand rank.  And yes, it is harder to do and 
doesn't happen as often.

That means hucksters aren't as reliant on hexes as before, 
because they can't batter manitou as easily.  If you play 
a huckster, hexing isn't going to dominate your character, 
unlike most DL hucksters.


--
Do you think you can keep on running
Like the papers that blow down your empty street
Outside in the dark when you can't sleep
The ghost of your father, always watching
--
Steve Wallace
http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~ceesrw
ceesrw@cee.hw.ac.uk