Re: [HoE] Re: Templars and Anti-Templars

["Steve Crow" <crow_steve@hotmail.com>]

> > Heh, of course than Jo is way too rough on a lot of people as well...
> >
>
>Absolutely, but not to the same extent with the same sorts of people that 
>Simon
>is - and you don't see Jo getting blackballed, do you? (of course that may 
>have
>to do with...other factors... ;-])
>

Why would Jo get blackballed for being rough?  The issue is Templars being 
blackballed for being too lenient...

> > So we're back to, what _is_ the punishment for being too lenient?  No 
>other
> > punishment (of any sort) is suggested that I recall.
> >
>
>I don't think a *punishment* as such is called for, but that's just IMHO - 
>I
>feel that it's better for a Templar to be a bit too lenient than a bit too
>harsh. Of course, if the Templar is constantly going out of his/her way to
>rescue biker gangs, then Simon may well have words to say - at which point,
>they'd be blackballed, which isn't really a punishment by itself...more a 
>direct
>command to "git your behind back Boise right quick" to explain themselves 
>and
>make amends/whatever. That bit is really more up to how the Marshal sees 
>Simon.
>

Well, defending biker gangs was never the issue, so that's a bit of a red 
herring.  I think such an order would be consistent with how Pinnacle 
presents Simon, and therefore (however indireclty) encourages Marshals to 
handle such a situation as well.

> > And if Templars are free to be "too lenient," doesn't that strip them of
> > some of their flavor (which I like, although not necessarily for PCs)?
> >
>
>It's not so much that they're free to be lenient...I think (and this has 
>been
>said before by other people, so I'm sorry if it sounds familiar) that 
>Templars
>fit very well into a heroic posse, or one in which everyone is a Companion
>(although I wouldn't like that...yech) - if the other players are making
>characters who aren't out to make the West a better place, then the Templar
>isn't going to fit in very well, just like any other character who has the
>heroic hindrance or yearnin' or something of that ilk.
>

Nor would I want to see an all-Templar/Companion group.  I don't think the 
issue is the "heroicness" of the party, but that the Templars are actually 
less heroic, by being more selfish.  Which is exaclty what the books say.

>That said, if the rest of the posse is making a heroic posse, and one 
>player
>makes a Templar, and the posse get to a town which the rest of the posse 
>thinks
>is worth helping against Black Hats or whatever, but the Templar doesn't, 
>then
>this is a problem the player has caused - not the rules for Templars. I 
>have
>played in games before where one player has completely screwed the rest of 
>the
>party over because of "playing in character" and it tends to lead to a bit 
>of
>bad blood.
>

Well, that's where we disagree.  The rules for Templars, _and_ the 
guidelines that Pinnacle set up for the Templars, does cause the problem, 
IMO.  Sure, you could blame a player by saying he was going by what Pinnacle 
says and therefore he's causing the problem, but that seems a little 
extreme.

If a player does what a player thinks is "in character", then the problem 
lies with the player. If a player does what the source material _say_ is 
in-character for characters of that "class," then the problem lies with the 
source material.

>A solution to the "Templar problem" is to simply get the players together 
>before
>making characters and have a quick discussion about basic directions they 
>want
>the game to go in. If most people want to make up their own road gang and 
>cruise
>for gas and guns, then a Templar isn't going to fit in well. Likewise, if 
>most
>of the party want to make a group of roaming mercenaries who help those who 
>can
>pay, then again, the Templar's not going to fit in well. The party may 
>evolve
>over time to become a group of bona-fide heroes, but until they do, most
>Templars simply would not join the group.
>

*sigh* All true, but is _never_ been an issue that I or anyone else has 
raised.  What we've raised is a Templar _not_ fitting in with a "heroic" 
group.  He is, basically less heroic and more selfish.  The problems I've 
had arise when the Templar is less heroic, not more heroic, than those he is 
with.

> > Well, actually that's another point of confusion on our part.  but it 
>boils
> > back down to, again, if those Templars are acting in a non-Templar-type 
>way
> > to the degree they're getting Hise's blessing...what _does_ Simon do?  
>Let's
> > say that blackballing is out.  What does that leave that keeps the 
>player
> > and his character in the group?
> >
>
>(OK, you've done it now...I've had to walk to my room and pull out *the 
>book*...
>;-P)
>Last Crusaders, p. 47
>'[St. Hise] is angry that her death was the foundation for our order's 
>"test of
>worth." She realizes the importance of the Templars, however, and appears 
>to
>those few who occasionally break our own rules.
>This contradiction has been noted by our Grand Master. He does not condemn 
>those
>Templars to which she has appeared, but instead thanked them for honestly
>reporting the conditions of her patronage. He realizes the role of the 
>Templar
>is a difficult one, and exceptions must sometimes be made to the order's 
>rules.'
>
>I think that should cover it - I assume the same applies to the other 
>saints who
>are less than fantically harsh.
>

Well...it doesn't for me.  In fact, it brings me back to the original 
question.  So apparently Simon does _not_ have a problem with Templars 
helping the unworthy?  So...why are folks defecting to the Anti-Templars 
(they don't all get new ATs just from their warbands)?  And what then makes 
a Templar different (other than those nifty abilities) if the boss is 
lenient?

I can certainly run it that way, but it seems to fall into the, "Gee, do 
whatever you want within reason - I'll just keep making exceptions for you." 
  As others have noted, Templars are supposed to make hard choices.  This 
policy would seem to absolve them of any but the most obvious violations 
(the oft-cited "helping bad guys" which was never an example I or anyone 
else who had problems ever tossed out).

>Nick "IMHO and IIRC" Coucouvinis


---

Steve Crow

"Worm Can Opener Extraordinare"

Check out my website at:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/4991/


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