Re: [PyrNet-L] Re: French vs US &Uk Pyrs(Long)

[Ian Spencer-Brown <ian.spencer-brown@virgin.net>]

At 11:25 25/04/98 -0400, you wrote:
<>I really was astounded at the enormous size - not just height but breadth
>and substance of the Pyrs in England when we visited there.  I missed the
>trip to France and so I guess I am trying to get some word pictures of dogs
>in other countries.  Your post is just the sort of thing I was interested in
>hearing about.>

I am surprised to learn that, in your eyes, you find the dogs to be tall.
Over the last couple of years the dogs shown in the ring  have tended to
become somewhat shorter and closer to the minimum standard. In UK it is
permitted for the judge to call for a dog to be measured without having to
make further comment, although I have not seen this happen in recent times.
I would stress that a good judge should look at the "overall" qualities of
the dogs under his eye, and not at a specific fault. However, the minimum
heights are specified in the standard, in stone, and are one of the few
stipulations which do not fall under the judges personal interpretation of
the standard. The overall balance, and type of the dog are of great import
but if judges continually put up a shorter dog, no matter what its other
attributes, this will tend to become the norm. If a taller dog is to be put
up then it must have the substance to go with it or the dog will not be
balanced. I would not be looking for heavier heads but balanced heads. The
UK dogs of twenty years ago most definitely had almost St. Bernard like
head construction with the exception of one or two lines, further a lot of
these "mountain type" dogs had highly colored heads which greatly added to
the massive appearance, when in fact this was not  necessarily 100% accurate.
The first stud dog I used was a French import Bergerie Santos who was used
on my two HD free Bergerie bitches. He was a tall and colored dog and
fairly unmanageable, I don't belive he was ever shown by Mrs Prince. The
resulting litters were regarded as being very French although by todays
standard of showdogs I think they would still be placed. ( two of the pups
went to Copeland, drummer of the pop group Police, son of the CIA Copeland)
"The head should have little or no stop."  Personally I feel that these few
words have left too much latitude over the years which have allowed judges
to put up dogs unworthy of the title of Pyrenean Mountain Dog. Little or no
stop indicates a collie type head to some people and this does paint a
picture to me of a Pyrenean head.  Equally many Champions have far too much
stop. I have tried to find a way to reword this section so that the head
can be judged accurately by a judge who does not have a hundred years
breeding experience, but I have found it to be impossible.        
The standard of head I found last year at the National was on a par with
the  winning dogs in the UK. I did find one dog which I obviously cannot
name which I was told was a multiple winner. If I had only that dog as an
example of the PMD in the US I would have gone home very disappointed. It
is not my place to criticize but my faith was restored by the judging.  One
thing I would say, that the standard of the eyes with few exceptions was
really very much better in the dogs which I saw, than those of the UK
showdogs at present. Roundness in the eye, as does incorrect coloration,
really detracts from the true Pyrenean expression. Without any doubt some
the most perfect heads are to be found in the  French bred dogs (IMHO) but
by no manner of means are they all good. Some of the French dogs have all
the faults, and more, that us mere mortals breed. These dogs don't have
collie heads!! 
At the first World Conference the subject of a universal standard was
discussed at very great length by leading exponents of the breed. Indeed
members of this list were there in some force, and it was  agreed that in
general, and I stress the word general, there were no vast differences
between the standards of the main exhibiting countries, but the
interpretation of some points in the standards tended towards exaggeration
in a few areas, not anyone's fault, just that some things tend to become
recognized  as correct over a period of time.
As some of you have realized the quarantine for the UK will probably go in
the next couple of years allowing the UK exhibitors to show in France. This
will lead to a greater gene pool of breeding stock and I am sure that the
UK will benefit from greater access, I for one am looking forward to this
tremendous expansion for the chance to choose from the French bred dogs,
which at present I am unable to do because I am not prepared to subject a
dog to six months detention. The KC will not permit AI.  This will of
course bring us into line with some of the fine European bred stock. At
present directly bred French dogs have not made a great impression on the
UK show scene, but that is not to say that the next generation bred with
part UK stock will not. European dogs certainly have a great deal to offer
us. I firmly believe that the UK dogs have just as much to offer the
European stock as they can offer us. The skill of the breeders and the
wisdom of the judges is what will improve the showstock to B.I.S level. 
Just to throw another spanner in the works. I think that one of the
Pyrenean Mountain Dogs closest to the VISUAL standard I carry in my mind
came from South Africa.
Well, I realize that I have set myself up here, so go for it.
Ian