Re: [PyrNet-L] thread about rescue pyr with aggression problems (seamus)

["Karen Reiter" <kreiter@servtech.com>]

Hi Susan,

Your post has many things that need addressing.  But first I'd like to
clarify a few things.

<<it was david totsch who runs the northeast division of pyr rescue. >>

David does not "run the northeast division of pyr rescue", I do.  David
helps with rescue in his area of New England and for whatever reason,
prefers to work independently of our regional club.

<< i don't think he is where blame should be placed though.  he had placed
the dog with another family in the area who said they couldn't keep him
because he wasn't getting along with their other pyr <snip> so, the way they
framed the problem to david was that the dog wasn't fitting in when in
reality, he was acting the way the other dog was showing him was ok. >>

I don't think that David is to blame either.  No matter how hard we, as
rescue people, try to make sure that everything is "okay" with a rescue dog,
each situation/each dog is different.  Some dogs exhibit different behaviors
when taken out of their current element.  If we're fortunate to foster a dog
and evaluate it, they may show different behaviors again.  What I ALWAYS
tell people is that if they're not 100% certain about a potential dog, they
should NOT adopt it.

<< so i actually picked up my rescue pyr from that family , not david's.>>

I normally refer to this as a direct placement, where a dog goes from it's
current home to a new home.  I strongly encourage both sides to "interview"
each other, no holding back, and ask very direct pointed questions.  The
behaviors that you saw in his current home most like would continue in your
home unless some retraining was done.

<<not two weeks after i got seamus he attacked me.  as i posted to this list
a year ago, he took some cheese off the counter and when i caught him i
mistakenly cornered him to punish him.  he lunged at me with his
teeth bared and tried to bite me. >>

I remember this post.  I also remember calling you and asking if there was
anything that I could do.  At that time, I didn't know that you had gotten
the dog from David.

<<it was determined that seamus shouldn't be put down,>>

How was this determined?

<<i guess what i'm saying is that i would be willing to consider giving him
to someone who had a total grasp on behavioral and dominance problems and
had the expertise to work with him.  >>

I have to say that in all honesty, Rescue would not take this dog in, nor
would we place him.  We have too many other well behaved dogs that need
rehoming.  And if it were MY dog, I could never give this dog to someone
else, in good conscience, and expect a new owner to take on this
responsibility.

<<we feel a little abandoned by the pyr community because i have often
reached out to this list, and knowing that the intervention potential is
minimal in this medium, i haven't felt like anyone has really reached out to
help me with this situation. >>

Susan, I'm sorry but I personally have called you to try and help with this
dog.  You all but rejected my advice so what else can I do?

<< the advice has ranged from 'put him down' to 'it's you not the dog who
needs retrained'.  there has been lots of words of support but that doesn't
cover the complex emotions we feel toward this dog.  i've also reached out
to the director of pyr rescue and have only received advice, not a solution.
maybe this is asking too much of the community to step in and help me solve
the problems with this rescue.>>

But don't you understand that all that we can do is give you advice?
Ultimately, it's YOUR decision as to what heppens with this dog.  Unless
someone can be with you and watch the interactions between you and Seamus,
the only thing that we can do is tell you what we would do if it were us,
based on our experiences.  Believe me, I DO understand the complex emotions
that you must feel toward this dog.  MY concern is for your safety and the
safety of others.  What kind of a solution do you want?  Should David, or
myself take the dog back and take care of it ourselves?  This was a direct
placement, from one home to another.  Should the owner take the dog back?  I
just don't know what to tell you.  Only YOU know what will "work" for you.
Decisions having to do with Pyrs that have behavioral problems like this are
VERY difficult at best.  I can only wish you the best of luck and hope that
the next time you get a dog, your experience will be a much more positive
and a happier one.

<<please don't read this as a flame>>

I'm not.

<<i'm just telling you all how i feel and hoping that someone can recommend
a solution that doesn't entail euthanizing the dog but doesn't leave us as
hostages either.>>

I'm not sure that this is an either/or situation.  If this were my dog, or a
dog that came into PFNE rescue that was evaluated with this behavior,
difficult as the decision is, I would euthaize him.  I cannot ask someone
else to care for a dog with problems as serious as this nor will I put my
club or myself at financial risk for some lawsuit happy person.  And I could
not live with a dog that I was afraid of.  I'm sure that Seamus must realize
that you're afraid of him.  The only thing that I can think of as an
alternative is to put him on Prozac or some other kind of behavior altering
drug.  Even this will not offer you any guarantees.

Sorry for being so long winded and I hope that you won't take offense at
what I've said.

Best of luck,
Karen Reiter
kreiter@servtech.com
PFNE Rescue Chair