Re: [pyrnet] French vs. American Heads in the Great Pyrenees

["Barb Bowes" <greatpyr@enter.net>]

I too have heard the terms "French style" and "American style" when it comes 
to describing heads. It would be far better, IMO if people would use 
"correct" and "incorrect" when describing heads.

As you say, there is so much more than just heads to consider. It is a shame 
that there are those that breed heads to their preference rather than to the 
standard. And many of those do win in the show ring. I too, do not like 
loose lips, apparent stop, etc. when looking at a Pyr. It changes the 
expression. that being said, sometimes markings can form an optical illusion 
and make a head appear incorrect, yet if one was to put hands on the dog and 
measure the head for balance, one might find that it is actually a correct 
head.

There is one picture where it appears to the eye that the dog's eyes are too 
close together. But that may very well be due to the markings on the face 
causing an optical illusion.

One of the things I find interesting, is that it appears that over the 
years, that the size of the teeth have changed. I see so many dogs with 
small canine teeth now. And it has nothing to do with their overall size nor 
the correctness, or incorrectness of the head.

I have occasionally wondered if having an incorrect head shape would effect 
the power of the bite should it become necessary to defend the dog's 
charges.

Barb Bowes
Desiree & Lucy (Pyrs)
The more people I meet, the more I like my dog!
In God We Trust
greatpyr@enter.net
http://www.eastpennpyrrescue.org
http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/PA364.html

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andréa deCarlo" <staad03@moravian.edu>
To: <pyrnet-l@pyrnet.org>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [pyrnet] French vs. American Heads in the Great Pyrenees


Hey, thanks for your response!

I was considering addressing in my first post the point you brought up,
but didn't want to write so much that nobody would read it, haha.  I
want to preserve the majesty of the breed while working to continue to
eliminate health concerns that can keep them from performing their
original function as livestock guardian or their modern function as
lifelong loyal companion and guardian.    My goal, in Pyrs, is to
produce dogs of sound body and mind who adhere to the breed standard and
could be capable of fulfilling their original purposes as Pyrs.  What I
think really helps one distinguish the Pyr from the myriad of other
predominantly white LGD breeds is the Pyr's expression... thus this
discussion of heads.

My goal is to give back to the breed that has given so much to me, and
to preserve its wonderful traits and improve its weaknesses, for future
generations.  Thus, winning is secondary, and one would think that
winning would follow the points I just mentioned, but, of course, since
everyone interprets the standard somewhat differently, I know that will
often not be the case... Still, doesn't it become hard to continue to
better the breed if you have a "type" that most others in your country
don't seem to view as being so close to the standard?  If other breeders
do not see some success with your dogs in the show ring, it seems
unlikely that you will find the same opportunities.  Also, if one is
thinking the "pyrfect" dog is something that nobody else here seems to
be breeding, might that be an indication that one needs to reevaluate
why s/he considers the ideal dog to be whatever it is that s/he
considers it to be?


I do hope that nobody sees this as a commentary on others' dogs in a
public forum; that was not the intent.  I chose five dogs off my
"all-time favorite Pyrs" list, because each of them, I think, is
incredible, and I think they are all somewhat different.  I wasn't sure
how else to illustrate the differences I was trying to talk about, as I
have heard others refer to some of these dogs as having a "French style"
head and others having an "American style" head, but was not sure how
extensively these terms were used, or even if they were the right way to
capture the differences between the dogs I posted.


Obviously, there's much more to choosing a dog than what we're
discussing here, but I do want to start somewhere.





On 3/28/2011 5:06 AM, Tracy Bassett wrote:
> Not much time to write a big reply just now, but really my first
> question to you (for you to ask yourself) would be - what is more
> important to you?  Winning or breeding/owning and presenting Pyreneans
> which represent the breed well?  Note that whichever one is more
> important to you may dictate the path you take as unfortunately one
> isn't always necessarily the same as the other, particularly in the all
> breeds ring.
>
> I would emphasise that the breed is a French breed (no matter what
> anyone says that is where the breed originates from - 'French' is not a
> dirty word!) and knowing its history, purpose, origins and development
> and how these have shaped how the breed looks and how it is structured
> is important.  If you don't already have it Joe Gentzel's book 'From
> France With Love' is well worth getting hold of. (note I hate the term
> 'French Head' etc - go to a show like the RACP Nationale Elevage in
> Argeles and you will see dogs ranging from one end of the scale to the
> other ).
>
>   From the look of the dogs in the pictures you gave, some are reasonably
> young and some more mature.  Note that this may affect the way they
> look.  A youngster can change a lot in a few years.
>
> When it comes to the dogs in the pictures, I do have a preference (and
> it is not a dog I am familiar with so no bias there - just going off
> photos though which can be deceptive at times).  Email me privately
> though if you want to know which one it is and why, as I don't think it
> necessarily appropriate to go into a commentary on other peoples dogs on
> a public forum.
>
> Tracy Bassett
> Espinay Pyrenean Mountain Dogs
> "Putting the Breed before breeding"
> Gunning NSW Australia
> mobile: 0412167278
> email: info@espinay.com
> web: www.espinay.com
>
>
> On 28/03/2011 7:06 PM, Andréa deCarlo wrote:
>> So, to the question(s) and such!  I am incredibly impressed with P,
>> and would love to have a pup resembling P.  But I can't decide.  I
>> also think H is a beautiful dog, but find myself nervous that getting
>> a dog like her as my first show dog would not go well in the AKC?  I
>> would love to hear your opinions and experiences/thoughts on whether
>> more of a French-type dog would be able to be successful in the US...
>> I think the smartest thing for me to do would be to search for a dog
>> like P, and then if I am still so inclined, to incorporate dogs like
>> H, T, and M into my lines when the perfect opportunity/dog arises.
>>
>> I'd really really like to hear your opinions.
>>
>>
>> Andréa
>>


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