Re: [pyrnet] French vs. American Heads in the Great Pyrenees

[joan@jmdist.com]

Hello Andrea

Well you've walked into a hornets nest!  This topic has been discussed many times before and I don't know yet if anyone will ever agree!

That said, I am firmly in the french camp. We have imported 8 dogs over the last 10 years from France and Monaco and have loved each and every one of them.  They each brought something different to our breeding program and we plan our breedings based on what we can do to improve each litter 

I won't debate which is better, french or american (type), but I will share what we have gotten with our puppies: length of leg resulting in taller dogs, long length in the body, almond-shaped eyes, and heads that have little stop. The coats are typicall shorter, and courser.  Mouths are typically tighter, although we have had a few that I would like tighter. Most importantly, temperments are wonderful. 

Now, when we do show our dogs, they are typically the largest in the ring--even our bitches are typically larger than most males!  Sometimes I think my dogs look like an entire different breed when they are in the ring---they do look different from what the judges are used to.  That said, we have had success in the ring and are happy with that.  

I think you have to decide what makes you happy--and if it is showing get the type dog that you think will do well. The main thing to remember is that you get a dog for the length of its lifetime--showing is just one small part of it.  

Joan Ziehl
Wyndhamhill Great Pyrenees
540 731 8692


Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Andréa deCarlo <staad03@moravian.edu>
Sender: owner-pyrnet-l@pyrnet.org
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 05:55:54 
To: pyrnet-l@pyrnet.org<pyrnet-l@pyrnet.org>
Reply-To: pyrnet-l@pyrnet.org
Subject: Re: [pyrnet] French vs. American Heads in the Great Pyrenees

Hey, thanks for your response!

I was considering addressing in my first post the point you brought up, 
but didn't want to write so much that nobody would read it, haha.  I 
want to preserve the majesty of the breed while working to continue to 
eliminate health concerns that can keep them from performing their 
original function as livestock guardian or their modern function as 
lifelong loyal companion and guardian.    My goal, in Pyrs, is to 
produce dogs of sound body and mind who adhere to the breed standard and 
could be capable of fulfilling their original purposes as Pyrs.  What I 
think really helps one distinguish the Pyr from the myriad of other 
predominantly white LGD breeds is the Pyr's expression... thus this 
discussion of heads.

My goal is to give back to the breed that has given so much to me, and 
to preserve its wonderful traits and improve its weaknesses, for future 
generations.  Thus, winning is secondary, and one would think that 
winning would follow the points I just mentioned, but, of course, since 
everyone interprets the standard somewhat differently, I know that will 
often not be the case... Still, doesn't it become hard to continue to 
better the breed if you have a "type" that most others in your country 
don't seem to view as being so close to the standard?  If other breeders 
do not see some success with your dogs in the show ring, it seems 
unlikely that you will find the same opportunities.  Also, if one is 
thinking the "pyrfect" dog is something that nobody else here seems to 
be breeding, might that be an indication that one needs to reevaluate 
why s/he considers the ideal dog to be whatever it is that s/he 
considers it to be?


I do hope that nobody sees this as a commentary on others' dogs in a 
public forum; that was not the intent.  I chose five dogs off my 
"all-time favorite Pyrs" list, because each of them, I think, is 
incredible, and I think they are all somewhat different.  I wasn't sure 
how else to illustrate the differences I was trying to talk about, as I 
have heard others refer to some of these dogs as having a "French style" 
head and others having an "American style" head, but was not sure how 
extensively these terms were used, or even if they were the right way to 
capture the differences between the dogs I posted.


Obviously, there's much more to choosing a dog than what we're 
discussing here, but I do want to start somewhere.





On 3/28/2011 5:06 AM, Tracy Bassett wrote:
> Not much time to write a big reply just now, but really my first
> question to you (for you to ask yourself) would be - what is more
> important to you?  Winning or breeding/owning and presenting Pyreneans
> which represent the breed well?  Note that whichever one is more
> important to you may dictate the path you take as unfortunately one
> isn't always necessarily the same as the other, particularly in the all
> breeds ring.
>
> I would emphasise that the breed is a French breed (no matter what
> anyone says that is where the breed originates from - 'French' is not a
> dirty word!) and knowing its history, purpose, origins and development
> and how these have shaped how the breed looks and how it is structured
> is important.  If you don't already have it Joe Gentzel's book 'From
> France With Love' is well worth getting hold of. (note I hate the term
> 'French Head' etc - go to a show like the RACP Nationale Elevage in
> Argeles and you will see dogs ranging from one end of the scale to the
> other ).
>
>   From the look of the dogs in the pictures you gave, some are reasonably
> young and some more mature.  Note that this may affect the way they
> look.  A youngster can change a lot in a few years.
>
> When it comes to the dogs in the pictures, I do have a preference (and
> it is not a dog I am familiar with so no bias there - just going off
> photos though which can be deceptive at times).  Email me privately
> though if you want to know which one it is and why, as I don't think it
> necessarily appropriate to go into a commentary on other peoples dogs on
> a public forum.
>
> Tracy Bassett
> Espinay Pyrenean Mountain Dogs
> "Putting the Breed before breeding"
> Gunning NSW Australia
> mobile: 0412167278
> email: info@espinay.com
> web: www.espinay.com
>
>
> On 28/03/2011 7:06 PM, Andréa deCarlo wrote:
>> So, to the question(s) and such!  I am incredibly impressed with P,
>> and would love to have a pup resembling P.  But I can't decide.  I
>> also think H is a beautiful dog, but find myself nervous that getting
>> a dog like her as my first show dog would not go well in the AKC?  I
>> would love to hear your opinions and experiences/thoughts on whether
>> more of a French-type dog would be able to be successful in the US...
>> I think the smartest thing for me to do would be to search for a dog
>> like P, and then if I am still so inclined, to incorporate dogs like
>> H, T, and M into my lines when the perfect opportunity/dog arises.
>>
>> I'd really really like to hear your opinions.
>>
>>
>> Andréa
>>


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