Re: [PyrNet-L] Re: pinch and electric collars

[Bluebonnet <bluebonnet_72@yahoo.com>]

--- Tracy Bassett <espinay@dynamite.com.au> wrote:
> << Perhaps, bribing is a better word.  Not that I
> have any problem with
> bribing my dog.>>
> 
> Nope, not bribing either.  
      
   Depends on how you define bribing.  If you do x,
I'll give you y is bribery.  Of course, it is also
payment for services rendered.  Whatever you call it,
it isn't a bad thing.

it. Yes, you do sometimes use a
> 'lure' when first teaching
> an exercise, but the reward should be quickly
> randomised or it will be much
> less effective.  This is the part that most people
> (including some so-called
> 'motivational' trainers) forget.  The best analogy
> is a casino poker
> machine.  You keep playing on the chance that you
> will be rewarded.  If you
> were rewarded every time (a dollar in, a dollar out)
> or never, you would
> quickly find something better to do.  It is its
> RANDOM nature that keeps you
> playing.

    Or makes me not want to play, but that's a whole
other arguement.  I'm very familar with this material.
Randomizing works great, and there are all sorts of
studies regarding the best "schedule" for random
reinforcement.  I think the most common number I've
heard used is one in three, but you don't want to do
every third.
  
> 
> Withdrawal of attention, ie the removal of a
> positive stimulus to decrease
> negative behaviour, is a 'response cost', NOT
> 'punishment'.  A good example
> of this is turning your back and 'withdrawing' from
> a dog to decrease
> jumping.  A VERY effective method.  Punishment is
> the addition of a negative
> stimulus to decrease a negative behaviour.

     Isolation/boredom is the negative stimulus. 
Calling it a response cost is just using another word
for the same thing.  The way you are using it may be
similar to the concepts behind logical consequences
which is another form of discipline/training.  I much
prefer logical consequences to most behavioral
modification technqiues with humans, but I'm not sure
that dogs are able to make the connections necessary
for logical consequences.  
    Closely related to logical consequences is natural
consequences.  I do allow some natural consequences
with my dogs.  For example, if the puppy tries to
steal food from his older brothers bowl he gets turned
over on his back by the older dog.

> 
>> Yes, positive reinforcement increases a behaviour. 
> So how about teaching a
> behaviour to REPLACE the behaviour you don't want? 
> For example, if the dog
> is jumping up, teach it to sit (it can't really sit
> and jump up at the same
> time after all!!!). Chasing the cat is very
> rewarding for a dog (lol!), but
> this behaviour can also in most cases be lessened
> (and even extinguished)
> through substitution.  You just have to train
> proactively.

      Sure, sometimes.  It doesn't always work, and it
takes time.  We work toward those goals, but in the
meantime Jake has to walk through the neighborhood
without getting hit by a car.  I'm not saying you
should substitue behaviors but while working towards
that you have to have something that works now.
    Also, I'm not sure that much is as rewarding as
chasing that cat.  I know that you can wave food in
front of Jake's face and if something else is on his
mind, even peanut butter, his favorite may not get his
attention.  
     Ultimetly, though pure behaviorism doesn't
account for all the responses in dogs.  Jake does now
walk on a leash beside me, using only a flat collar. 
Jake knows when I have treats in my pocket and when I
don't.  I've seen him check it out.  Even knowing I
don't have a treat to reward him, he does what I want,
because he respects me.  
   Our relationship isn't about rewards and
punishment.  Sometimes those are a part of it,
especially when learning something new.  We respect
each other and want to please the other one.  Skinner,
and the like had some good ideas, but they only
scratched the surface.
                     Brandy

=====
"Bluebonnets" by Julia D. Booth
Offical Flower Song of the State of Texas
Chorus:
Bluebonnets, blue lovely Bluebonnets,
More beautiful than all the rest.
Texas chose you for her flower,
And we love you best, Bluebonnets.
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