Re: [pyrnet] Pyrs without Dwarf producing ancestors

["Linda Weisser" <lmweisser@olywa.net>]

----- Original Message -----
From: <SovreignPyrs@aol.com>

what the committee is doing beyond arranging  for DNA samples and
pedigrees.  I assume this is all sent to the researcher.  But from that
point
what happens? >>

He stores those DNA "samples" until he has a large enough number to work
with which is, I believe 15 different sets.  There is not point in starting
until that time.

<< Do we sit around and wait till he developes a test.  I realize
that seems logical.  That we all need to be patient.
BUT, how long will this take him?  Could be decades don't you agree. >>

Yes, in some sense we do wait.  He will not develop any test.  He will just
try to identify a "marker" that is found in all dwarf carriers.  The maker
sits near the gene that controls the existence of dwarf potential.  After
he isolates the marker, then it is up to one of those genetic companies to
actually develop the blood test and to put it on the market.  Of course,
the hard reality is that he may never "find" that marker.  BTW, this
person in Mark Neff who also does (did?) the work of finding a marker for
dwarfism in Beagles.

<<Ask teh
MAL people how long they've been looking for a genetic marker.>>

A question that I would like to ask.  From what I "hear" (and that is not
huge but does come from mal sources) the marker work has not been going on
all that long.  A number of years.  Certainly not too much longer than we
have been working with Mark.  Their work is being done at MI I believe.  I
would like to hear a report on the status of the project.  perhaps Marie
can fill us in.

<<Meanwhile we all want to breed sound healthy dogs.  I can't
believe anyone wants to breed an afflicted puppies no matter what the
disease
is we are talking about.  Dwarfism happens to be the subject here. >>

Of course no one wants to breed afflicted puppies.

<<We set up a genetic pedigree data
base.
Found ourselves a geneticist and started working from there.  To be sure at
first it required courage for those breeders to come forward and amdit teh
problem and file the pedigree, but they are universally admired for doing
so.>>

I think that's wonderful.  We are having some problem getting people to
come forward over the dwarf issue.  I wonder how willingly they would come
forward over the much more common problems such as patella luxation and
siezures?


 <<That NO ONE was immune.  The genes were spread
far
& wide.  Breed long enough and you will turn up something, trust me on
this.>>

Are we talking about dwafism here or about *all* genetic problems in
beagles?

<<I now have the
luxury of submitting a proposed breedings pedigree to Ada and she can tell
me
the risk factor involved in any breeding, whether I'm asking about dwarfism
or epilepsy or whatever (we use the data base for all health problems). >>

This is fascinating since for so many genetics problems we are unclear
about the manner of transmission which makes giving anyone an accurate
"risk factor" a risky proposition.  We could deal with PL or epilepsy just
for starters.  PL is a poly genic condition and no researcher is going to
give you a % chance of getting it.  U of MO is embarked on a *huge*
epilepsy study to try to determine the genetics.  The Belgian breeds have
similar work going on in California.  If you could get such information you
must be breeding litters of beagles without *any* genetic problems.

<<she tells me not to
llinebreed or inbreed on say this or taht quarter of teh pedigree without
naming any particular dog.>>

By telling you not to linebreed or inbreed on this or that quarter of a
pedigree she has in essence told you something about that dog.  If we want
real information and real help then it has to be in an environment of total
openess and that proves stubbornly resistant.

<< And I've even had the ability to
contact teh owners of these dogs if I wish and see if they can help me to
breed more intelligently based on what they've tried to get around a
problem.>>

I can do that for any dog in any pedigree that I think about breeding to.
I don't need a geneticist intermediary (or anyone else for that matter).
However, at that point what I get and/or what I believe, is dependant upon
the honesty of the person I am dealing with.  Dr Padgett says (not without
proof) that "What dog breeders do best is lie to each other."

<<Well twice you've asked, and twice I've said i'd help anyway I can.   We
NEED
this database, and the give and take of a good geneticist. >>

OK.  So contact me privately and lets talk about what you would like to do.
Tell me how you would set up such a database.  Do you have a geneticist in
mind?  Certainly nobody on the health committee is in any position to
dismiss any idea or any offer of help out of hand.

<<I personally have volunteered three times to several committees within
GPCA.
And have had no response.>>

I can't account for other committees.  The health committee has just
"signed on" a new volunteer for the patella project.  Which we needed far
more than dwarf help and we have been asking (nay, *begging*) for for
months.  And I have an ongoing conversation with another member who would
like to give his time and expertise.  We are trying to figure out how best
he could do this.

<<Perhaps we need a way to rally both sides together
for the good of the breed.>>

So, find that way to rally and start to work on it.  And while you are
there read my recent article in the Bulletin on the "history" of the GPCA
and the dwarf issue.  Perhaps you will see how far we really have come in
the last 10 years.  10 years ago this conversation would not even have
begun in a public forum!!  And please remember whenever we are inclined to
hold the Mal folks up as a shining example of cooperation and harmony that
they have been at this seriously 15-20 years longer than we have.  And in
the beginning for them also there was huge fear and dissention and gossip
and trauma.  We are looking at the "end" for them and not the beginning.

<<And its amazing how many are willing to provide the information
to a data base as I describe it.
Linda it seems both sides of the fence would be happy with the thsi
proposal.>>

Well, you are having a great deal more success than anyone on the health
committee has had.  And congratulations to you!!  Set up that database.
You want the information on the 25 or more dwarf litters that the health
committee has?  You think that most of that database does not already
exist?  And for those dwarf litters that the health committee does not
have, are you so sure that those breeders would send that information to
any other forum?  And unless that information is totally non confidential
it will not help the breed.


Linda