Re: [WW] OT America under Attack Letter

["Allan 'Deputy' Seyberth" <moderator@darious.com>]

 >I would rather not have to do this, but it seems that his (often
 >insulting) "differeing opinions" are welcome here, acording to the
 >moderator.

Just a quick point here.

His differing opinions are no more and NO LESS welcome than anyone else's 
opinion.  It is not my job nor is it my desire to regulate the content of 
discussions on the listservs outside of a few focal points
1) Topicness.
2) Flames
3) Legality
4) Formatting/attachments/other admin level stuff

         Now I had already mentioned that I was allowing the WTC attack 
topic as an exception to the on topic requirement.   I also requested that 
we give each other a bit more breathing room with regards to posts on the list.

         Given those two statements, I have no basis to remove Dwight from 
the WeirdWars list.  At worst he was mildly snarky in his replies to my 
comments made to him with my direct emails.  I can take snarky. And I have 
been insulted by far better men than him.  :)

         Sure - I strongly disagree with what he said.  And as the members 
of this and the OT list know (the OT list moreso) I have told him so, 
pointedly and rather uncivilly, with email that I sent to him directly 
under my normal posting account.  Everyone is of course welcome to do the 
same - but if you wish to disagree in an offensive manner you must do so 
off of the lists. I would like to maintain the lists as a place for civil 
discussions

Let me take this to the largest level.  It's about freedom of speech.  How 
can you say that you love the freedoms of your country if you are unwilling 
to stand by them - even on something as small as a fan listserv.  In 
America people have the right to burn the flag.  The Ku Klux Klan has the 
right to assemble and speak out.  Nazi's have the right to push their 
political agenda.  Are any of these things right - no.  But is restricting 
their rights any less of an evil?  Is it acceptable to tell people that 
"everyone is guaranteed freedom of speech - except for you because we don't 
like what you have to say".
I am certain that a lot of people would have liked to have silenced Martin 
Luther King, Jr.  His ideas were pretty unpopular at one point in time.

         Okay - that's pretty grandiose.  Let me bring it a little 
closer.  Not long after the Deadlands listserv was started, Christopher 
McGlothlin and I got into a public debate over whether or not the 
Confederacy would have really freed the slaves as they have in the 
Deadlands world - a debate that before too long wandered on to the subject 
of the origins of the Civil War itself.  I took the North and Mr. 
McGlothlin took the South.  Let me state that again  -  Mr. McGlothlin 
defended the role of the Confederacy.
         A pretty politically incorrect position to stand on nowdays.  I 
think it was a pretty good debate, and I like to believe that I held my own 
against a superior opponent, and in the end neither of us changed our minds.
         But I walked away from that with a greater understanding of the 
Confederacy - do I still believe that racism and slavery had a key role in 
the Civil War - of course.  But do I still believe that the Union were the 
not-at-fault heroes in white and the Confederacy were all backwater 
ignorant slave-beaters - no.
         I learned a lot from that civil and polite exchange between Mr. 
McGlothlin and myself.  Things that I would not have learned if Mr. 
McGlothlin was shouted down for defending an unpopular viewpoint.

         Another example.  Someone recently came on the Deadlands list with 
an unpopular viewpoint - he does not like the DL mechanics.  While being 
brusque and abrupt with his comments, outside of some minor personal 
attacks on me, he was civil in his messages.  I actually had to come down 
on some folks whose opinions I agreed with because they were less than 
civil when they replied to this person on the main lists.

         Let me bring this a little closer - Arne, being German, (if you 
will please forgive me for using you here) has a different viewpoint on 
World War II than the American one.  Should we exclude him from the list 
for having a different opinion than most of us?  How about the Japanese, 
the British, the Texans?  (They are a whole 'nuther country after all), 
until all we have left is a handful of people who do nothing but agree with 
each other.

         Does this mean that if a Nazi were to join the lists and to calmly 
and rationally discuss the benefits the Nazi party had on 1930's Germany 
would I allow it?  Probably yes as the subject would be both on topic and 
polite.  The only issue would be in having to deal with the laws against 
anything to do with the Nazis that some nations have enacted - the purpose 
of this list is for all fans to be able to communicate with each other 
(which is also why attachments and html is not allowed - they hinder the 
ability of members to get digest versions of the list), as well as the 
legality issues involved.
         Now - if this supposed discussion moved towards a more modern 
arena then I would shut it down - for being off topic for this list.  Just 
like I would shut down a topic on, oh, modern day daoism or the price of 
groceries in Nebraska.
         Would I agree with the Nazis.  No.  Would I be afraid that there 
message would spread and take root?  No.  Do I personally feel that anyone 
who is trying to resurrect the Nazi party is at best sadly self-delusional 
and deliberately ignoring the sheer weight of facts in existence?  Yes.
         Do I feel that their rights as protected by the laws of this 
nation are less important than my revulsion over their stupidity?
         No.

         Now - I will admit that I have made a mistake in allowing the 
topic in the first place.  I had hoped for better.

         By a rough count Dwight was personally insulted 7 times on the 
list.  I haven't come down on anyone for that for the same reason that I 
haven't come down on Dwight.  I asked for everyone to give each other a bit 
of breathing room and to cut each other some slack and coming from the 
moderator account that request has to apply to the moderator account as well.

         I do understand that this is a private and not a public forum and 
as such we have the right to dictate what content we allow.  I also 
understand that I am likely under self-delusions of grandeur - over playing 
the freedom of speech thing in what is ultimately a trivial forum.  One 
previously unhappy list participant termed me a tinpot dictator - and that 
may also be right as I am trying to force this issue down everyone's 
throats.  I can even hear the melodramatic music playing in the background 
right now. . .
         But on Tuesday morning my nation was attacked by some weaselly 
little coward who, to be quite frank, rocked us pretty damn hard.  We have 
a death toll that is currently estimated to be around 5,000 people, there 
will be an economic impact that will easily reach into the trillions of 
dollars and there is a decent chance that we will see a full bore economic 
depression like we haven't seen since the '20s.  I am not in the FBI, nor 
am I in the CIA or the NSA or in any related government position - so there 
is no way I can help with the investigation.  I am no longer in the Army so 
I can't even hope to get sent into combat against whoever did this.  I am 
too far away from New York to lend a hand there.  There is only three 
things I can do - donate blood, donate money, and make damn certain that I 
hold to the highest ideals of this nation.  A nation who counts amongst 
it's ideals the idea of freedom of speech - a concept based in the noblest 
of ideas   - that freedom is not just for the rich or the majority opinion 
but that - that everyone's voice is important.  That idea the fear of ideas 
is more damaging to freedom than any idea itself could be.
Yeah - overblown - over-important - over the top - but I want to hold to 
those ideals even in the minor things - like this listserv.


         Now - I am not trying to play holier-than-thou on this - I have 
made mistakes moderating the lists before and will likely do so again, and 
I know that the dichotomy of me moderating the lists and me keeping the 
ability to express my own personal opinions have caused problems before and 
I KNOW that if someone were to stand in front of me and tell me that 
America deserved what happened I would be violating that person's civil and 
constitutional rights all up and down the block. . .

         But I want to stick to the high ground on this one.


(end music)



Allan 'Deputy' Seyberth
moderator@darious.com

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The listserv rules:
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difficulty with how I am doing in my job as moderator, you can always 
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*FAIR WARNING:  The Deadlands-OT list was created to have a list where the 
regulars could take their off topic conversations.  One of the only rules 
is. . . no rules.  (Almost.  Attachments are still forbidden.)  That pretty 
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