Re: [WW] Weird Wars Problems - Savage Worlds - D20 Modern

["Cpt. Canuck" <canuck@superaje.com>]

Steven \"Conan\" Trustrum wrote:
> 
> At 02:42 PM 10/8/02 -0400, Cpt. Canuck you wrote:
> >Steven \"Conan\" Trustrum wrote:
> >Nor do I care about the 'creation of guns.' Not exactly a good analogy.
> >Most of us have swung a stick and have an idea of what swordplay is
> >like.  Many people have never shot a gun, or have any idea about
> >gun-problems.  I'm sure that it'd be boring to gun-enthusiasts, and
> >those who carry guns around with them all day.  Even historians
> >dedicated to WW2 may have no idea about guns.
> 
> Then again, most people have seen a movie where someone's used a pistol or

There's a little difference between a movie and actual knowledge. 
Movies aren't necessarrily realistic.  But... point taken.

> >Excuse me for offending you with this tripe.  No one said anything about
> >pages and pages of notes, just some gun info for those who know nothing
> >about them.  Sure, it can be played without knowing anything about guns,
> >but considering the large amount of what you call 'tripe' in simply
> >history lessons that could easily be read on the net, another page of
> >gun info isn't so much.  What about all the 'tripe' about the generals
> >and other info all readily available on the net?
> 
> It didn't offend me, but I can't believe that someone would seriously want
> someone to include this in an rpg when it is VERY accessible. Basically you

Sure its accessible, but what's even more accessible is the mounds of
extra info already included.  You're argument that it shouldn't be
included because I could spend my own time researching it is moot.  

> want the rpg company to save you the time of doing some research on your
> own. And yes, when trying to put a manuscript together, spending even just
> a single page on this (something that really isn't at all necessary for
> playing the game unless you've been living under a rock and think that the
> bullet comes out of the butt of the rifle) is asking quite a lot. It's a

So you've told me that I've been living under a rock.  You are very
adamant that this shouldn't be included.  That's fine, I think it
should.  Non of your arguments hold water IMO.  The fact is though, that
it doesn't matter at this point.

> rare moment when a publisher says to an author "we don't have enough info
> here, think you can throw in a few filler pages, maybe something about gun
> operation?" Quite the opposite. It is usually the publisher telling the

Hmmmm....  If the WW rulebook was just mechanics, it'd have been quite
small.  Perhaps by being that small they might think it wouldn't sell as
well.

> author to cut his manuscript down by X amount of pages to meet their layout
> projections. This means that if I see a book with something this
> unnecessary in it, I can't help but think about how better the space could
> have been used.

Fluff is nothing new to RPG products, but what I would have liked to see
wasn't fluff historical info, but actual aids to RPing and the mechanics
of the game, as well as giving gun newbies a little info.  

> As for the stuff about the generals, that is more relevant to the game. It

What about the pages and pages of historical information?  Hey, I'm not
complaining about the fluff, but your argument was that you only wanted
mechanics, and that's why you don't want gun info.  Yet you defend the
fluff.

Too be honest I haven't seen any relavence in my sessions to the
Generals.  Perhaps much later on, but certainly not anytime soon.  Hey,
that info is easy to acquire from movies like PATTON, and books, and
hey, why should the company do any research, it's the players
responsibility anyhow isn't it?

> >Regardless, I don't think people can understand unless they're the ones
> >who don't know guns.  Its just like computers.  Those who know them
> >can't understand people who don't.  Jeepers man, there is no 'ANY' key.
> >Your CD-ROM is not a cup holder!
> 
> This isn't analogous at all because you trying to operate a computer for
> real isn't the same as you buying an rpg book and saying "my character
> wants to use a computer." I played several rpgs involving VR and computer
> hacking for years before I even owned or operated a computer. If I'd bought
> the an rpg book on a cyberspace and it was filled with descriptions on
> bytes, kilobytes, processor speeds, data transfer rates, the differences
> between 64 and 128 byte encryption, etc. I would have rushed to see if I
> could return the bloody thing.

If you'd never used a computer before, knowing the basics would be a
real asset in any session.  Otherwise its just a magic box that you
don't even know how to turn on.  See Hank Hill (King Of The Hill)
pointing the mouse at the computer and pressing the mouse button over
and over to turn it on.  You don't need endless details, and you
certainly could fill a whole book the size of the rulebook with all gun
info, just like you don't need all the info about computers, but the
basics are very useful.  

> >As well, considering the game is heavily based on gun play, more info on
> >those guns wouldn't be terrible.
> 
> That's what a library is for. A role-playing company is about making
> role-playing games, not about providing resources and history or technical
> lessons for the material covered in those same games. It goes without

The magic-user casts spells, we don't need to know how.

I'm sure the Mechwarrior RPG would be much better without all that
technical tripe.

Perhaps it just depends on your realism in your game too.  Heck, I'm
sure many don't bother making their players reload, or even count ammo.  

> saying that if you have enough interest to play a game based in WWII that
> you will A) either already know enough to do so or B) have proven enough
> interest to learn more on your own.

Games are never passing fancies in this world.  No one would ever go,
"Hey that sounds neat, let's give it a try?"

It's easy to learn history, information about the Generals, the
resistance, and the landscape of Europe in WW2, but actual gun usage is
not as easy.  Regardless, I see people who'd love to see more maps of
the war torn areas.  Screw them eh...  Let's write an adventure, but
we'll leave out all the why's and any information not mechanics
related.  You have the bad guy, it's not important why he's the bad
guy.  Just a different way of playing.
 
Cap