Re: [PyrNet-L] RE: pinch and electric collars

["Doug Hustins" <profitmanage@mgenerations.net>]

Hi Jack,

You say in your post that this is not like using a baseball bat and I agree.
The question I was asking was "When does this "training" method become
abuse?"  If this collar doesn't work, would you use a stronger one?  How
strong would you go before you decided it was cruel?  This was the point I
was trying to make.  You say this is not like a bat but that "This is using
electric shock to make the dog do what you want it to do!!!"  My point IS
that  "This is using electric shock to make the dog do what you want it to
do!!!"

I admit I too was skeptical at first.  I had occation to be situated next to
a pure-motivation trainer at a doggy demo I attended a few years ago.
During her demo, she explained that motivation worked on absolutely every
dog.  To be blunt, I told her I didn't believe it and that Pyrs were too
strong and too stubborn to train well.  Also that I was sure she only
brought her most well trained dogs to the demo.  She challenged me to bring
a dog of my choice to the rest of the demos that week and during the 2, 15
minute sessions per day that dog would be trained to sit, stay, down, come
and heel almost to perfection without any force of any kind being used.  I
accepted her challange since we had just had a dog come into rescue that I
had literally picked up 2 hours prior to being put down due to his hyper
behavior, destructiveness and inability to be trained.   Using both food and
praise motivation she trained that dog to do everything she promised.  I was
stunned.   To this day, many years later he will still do everything he was
taught during a total of 2.5 hours.

Having since seen it work time and again, I also now believe that it will
work on any dog.

I do agree completely with your opinion of choke collars.  I was given a
study by Cornell University to read once on the damage done by improperly
used choke collars and the results and pretty scary.  Having said that, if
you take the time to properly train your dog they will have no reason to
pull.

If as you say you wish to "always use the least aversive method that works"
then find a motivational trainer in your area and give it a try.  If as you
seem to believe it doesn't work then you are no further behind than when you
started.  If on the other hand it does work than you don't need to continue
to inflict unnecessary pain on your dog.

One last thought and then I will shutup.  What it really comes down to is
making your life with your pet as pleasant as possible for both of you.

By the way, I mean no insult or disrespect to any of you who disagree with
my opinion of things and I hope you will take these thoughts in the spirit
they are meant.

Take Care Everybody,
Doug Hustins,
Acroyar Great Pyrenees.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Mowery <jack.mowery@asc.mhmr.state.tx.us>
To: <pyrnet-l@pyrnet.org>
Sent: November 4, 1999 10:05 AM
Subject: [PyrNet-L] RE: pinch and electric collars


> I keep hearing comparisons of shock collars or pinch collars to ball bats
to
> the head.  "This is using electric shock to make the dog do what you want
it
> to do!!!"  Are we supposed to just sit our dogs down and explain very
> patiently to them why they should not pull, why they should not chase
> (insert prey object), why barking will get us thrown out of our house or
> sued/harassed by our neighbors?  I'm sorry, but, as much as we love them
and
> admire their intelligence, they are not fuzzy humans and they do not
> understand.  Even if we wish to treat them as children, we restrain/aver
> children from dangerous or anti-social activities.  The more immediate the
> danger or the greater the anti-social behavior, the greater the aversion
we
> may tend to apply.  A child runs past you off the curb to the street.  You
> scoop them up by the shirt, give them a swat on the rump and turn them
back
> to the yard.  As the recipient of any number of swats as a small child I
can
> attest it hurts.  But they never run the risk of killing me like that car
> would have.
>
> The pinch collar is not inhumane.  In fact, quite the opposite.  Studies
> have shown that the choke collar is very likely (49 of 50 dogs in the
study)
> to cause neck/throat injury.  The pinch collar is not (2 dogs in 50 and
one
> was believed to be congenital).  Yes, it pinches. . .  but only when they
> pull.  The use of a pinch collar can lead to more freedom for the dog.  I,
> at 50, am beginning to be bothered by arthritis.  A big dog pulling on the
> lead causes pain in shoulder, back and knees.  It got to the point where a
> walk around the block was painful.  At this point there were not a lot of
> walks in the park. The use of first a Halti (head collar) and then a pinch
> collar has stopped the pulling and the pain.  Walks are now a lot more
> pleasant for both of us.  And a lot more frequent.
>
> Would the electric collar bother you so much if you considered it to be a
> looooooong lead?  Now I would agree that the collar should only be used
when
> the dog is in sight, or you may have a big problem with timing.  (gee,
> Daddy, why did you shock me when I was coming back?!?!?  Am I not supposed
> to come back?!?!?)  And I would not put an anti-bark collar on a dog when
I
> was not home, because that is when he is supposed to bark and keep away
> predators (4 and 2 legged).
>
> Would you prefer the citronella collars for anti-bark?  Given the relative
> olfactory capacities of dogs/humans I suspect this is rather like having
the
> ammonia capsule broken under your nose when you start to faint.
>
> Personally, I would always use the least aversive method that works.  It
> comes down to if you don't like a specific training technique, don't use
it.
>
>
>
> Jack Mowery
> jlmowery@amaonline.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to esquire@pyrnet.org with
> unsubscribe pyrnet-l
> as the BODY of the message.  The SUBJECT is ignored.
>
>